The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  herk

  Meadow77,

  You wrote,

  Herk- you seem to be under the false impression that I don't read my bible and recieve instruction from the holy spirit.

  I believe you probably read the Bible, but I have serious doubts that you are depending upon the holy spirit for your teaching. Your arguments in behalf of the Trinity have all been exposed for centuries, yet Trinitarians keep bringing them up. This shows they get their beliefs from one another instead of from the holy spirit. The spirit would not teach what is weak and easily exposed.

  You wrote,

  I understand it must be strange for some to understand and accept the trinity.

  Of course you do. And the reason is that the teaching most certainly is "strange." It is so distant from what the Scriptures teach about God that it is puzzling why people aren't ashamed to say they believe it.

  Should we believe things that are unscientific? You say yes, while the Bible says no. God himself is the greatest scientist in the universe. And he doesn't ask us to believe what is unreasonable. Job correctly said, "Would He contend with me by the greatness of His power? No, surely He would pay attention to me. There the upright would reason with Him." (Job 23:6, 7) God gives the invitation, "Come now, and let us reason together." (Isaiah 1:18) There can be no solid reasoning based simply upon mere speculation, feelings and theories. If Christians are ever going to persuade others that the Bible is true, they have to use reason, not blind credulity, just as Jesus and the apostles set the example: "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. ... Now he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews." (Acts 18:4, 19) "And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them ... reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus." (Acts 19:8, 9) It is scientifically foolish to deny God's existence, and it's just as foolish to believe things about him that cannot be established by facts and reason, as well as by the Scriptures.

  It seems only reasonable that if God wanted us to believe as weird a teaching as the Trinity, he would have said so. He would have made it so plain that there would be no reason to doubt, especially if it pertained to receiving salvation. How would a poor farmer in lower Slobovia ever have an opportunity for salvation if, despite his love for the Bible, he never saw the Trinity there? It requires the mental gymnastics of biased scholars to interpret the doctrine. As Will Penwell has shown in several posts above, huge councils of clergymen have been brought together to decipher exactly how it's to be expressed. Even today the average pastor and priest stammers and fumbles as he tries on the spur of the moment to make the doctrine clear to someone who inquires. Yet most ardent Trinitarians sincerely believe that there is no salvation for non-trinitarians.

  It is far more difficult to believe in the Trinity than it is to believe that Jesus walked on water, raised the dead and turned water into wine. These are statements of fact, clearly expressed. We with our own eyes see huge aircraft weighing several tons flying through the air. Surely if God arranged for that possibility, he made it possible for a man to walk on water. We've never seen the dead raised to life, but who can clearly explain the process of a person's life sparking into existence within a mother's womb in the first place? It happens millions of times every day, and thus we have no reason to doubt that God has the power to bring someone back to life. God is the greatest chemist, so when we see modern chemists changing the structure of genes and gases, we need have no doubts that God enabled Jesus to change water into wine.

  You are correct about this debate probably having no end. There is an explanation for that. Trinitarians have their minds made up regardless of what the Scriptures say. No matter how many arguments they present, they are all demolished with a little reasoning and the clarification of other scriptures. But Trinitarians find that unacceptable. Constantly they are digging and straining, trying to find something somewhere that will make them feel good because it seems to be evidence for what they believe. That is no way to study the Bible. We should accept what it says rather than try finding within its pages what we personally believe or have been taught.

  You asked,

  How can there be 2 Alphas and Omegas?

  What would be the basis for such a question? God is called "Lord," but Paul said there are many "lords." What you need to point out for support of your theory is that God said somewhere that he alone is the Alpha and Omega.

  You wrote,

  You seem to be passing all my arguments off without even truly addressing them.

  Don't you have that backwards? Please name even one of your arguments that I've ignored - even one! The real problem is that you are ignoring every answer I've given to all your points and questions. Closing your eyes to things doesn't mean they don't exist. Please reread what I've written, and you should see clearly that I haven't ignored a single point you've tried to make. I ask you to be fair. I ask you to be truthful. It is a blatant lie to say that I haven't been "truly addressing" your arguments.

  Herk
• 

  herk

  Meadow77,

  You wrote,

  why do you not remember God referring to himself as I Am to Moses. Please tell me if you still do not think this ever took place and I will locate the passage for you.

  Why do you feel you have to be such a smart-alec? This is what you wrote regarding "I am":

  This was Known to the Jews as the true name of God. As precious to them as the Jehovah of the Witnesses.

  I wasn't disputing with you about God's mention of the term to Moses. You know that very well. What I questioned was your dogmatic statement that "I am" was known to the Jews "as the true name of God." There is no evidence for that claim, as I pointed out, either in history or among modern day Jews. That is merely something you desperately want to believe, not something based in fact.

  You wrote,

  Again you didn't really deal with what I was saying

  The problem is not a failure on my part. Apparently you are ignoring what I do write because you're spending all your thinking moments on defending the Trinity. You're not really paying attention, and you want me to feel the blame for it. Now, do you have a better idea why discussions like this one you started go on and on endlessly?

  You don't even listen to yourself. Note: You said,

  Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit

  Shouldn't you have said, "Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit"? What you say subconsciously reveals that even your own mind cannot accept the silliness of the Trinity. In the back recesses of your mind, God is the Father and the Father alone. But to defend the doctrine, you outwardly make the claim that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also Almighty God.

  In your latest explanation of how a man and wife become one, you said nothing you hadn't said before. You still claim that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same sense that a man and a woman are one. That shows you have no idea what the Trinity is all about. Your explanation falls flat on its face because the Trinity means there is one individual Godhead composed of three separate Persons. That doesn't mean that God is like a corporation where three humans run the show. It means there is One God running the show, but that he is not One Person - he is three Persons! There is no logical illustration you can use to explain such a nonsensical view of God.

  A man is a man, and a woman is a woman. They each have a separate body. Those bodies do not become one body when they get married. For the Trinity to be similar, there would necessarily have to be three God bodies to accomodate the three Persons who have those bodies. A Person is not a Person unless there is something tangible to represent that Person. This is why God and Christ are always seen in visions as having separate places. God is often sitting upon his throne while Christ is either seated or standing at his right hand. It's amazing to me that you seem incapable of noting such clear distinctions that are so often made within the Bible.

  Herk
• 

  SwedishChef

  "What you say subconsciously reveals that even your own mind cannot accept the silliness of the Trinity."

  Herk, stop playing word games, you know what meadow meant.
• 

  herk

  SwedishChef,

  You're the one playing games. Of course I know what Meadow77 meant. I didn't say that I didn't. I was merely pointing out how his (probably her) mind thinks, as well as yours. In one breath you say God and mean the Father alone, and in the next breath you say God and mean more than the Father. You never say the Father and God. Ever wonder why your mind plays such tricks on you? To non-trinitarians it's obvious why you think as you do, but you can't explain it yourselves. I know. For years I've seen Trinitarians try to worm their way out of that one.

  I know you also will try. And you will be dishonest in your answer, as Trinitarians generally are. You just can't face up to the fact that your Trinitarian's mind is in a fantasy world rather than in the world of reality.

  Herk
• 

  DakotaRed

  Dakota, for one, I did not call anyone here a "dorkus scholar". I called a scholar whom someone quoted a dork.

  Does it really make that much a difference whether it was someone here or someone in support of those here? I think not, it was totally uncalled for.

  Secondly, Christians are the ones with the truth.

  And so says Islam, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, Jehovahs Witnesses and all of them.

  Acts 11:26 "And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

  The Bible records the early church as being Christians. So are you calling the church of God false teachers?

  Actually, the term came about later. But, if you really wish to address any single one of the myriads of churches present as the Church of God, would it not be the Catholics? Since they can show a lineage from Christ time to present? Yet, they are readily condemned by Born Agains such as you.

  Thirdly, I'd like to know what sort of bloody history the Christians have. A true Christian's agenda is to spread the truth of God and be compasionate. Jesus says "Ye are the light of the world." My best bet is that you are talking about the Roman Catholic Church. Surely someone as "scholarly" as yourself would know the difference between a true Christian and a Catholic.

  Ah, there it is again, the subtle slam against me and any who disagree. LOL, you are so predictable. Have you ever actually read the history of Christianity? Do you deny the inquisitions? Do you deny the crusades and witch-hunts? There are many more, but I dont want to over tax you.

  As far as salvation issues, it seems that your agrument is more with the Word of God than with me. I quoted some verses pertaining to salvation and you have a problem with it.

  No, I have a problem with your narrow-minded view that you and you alone are correct in your view. You show no respect or tolerance for others that disagree with you. That attitude alone has resulted in many millions of bloody deaths throughout the centuries, all in the name of God!

  That's the best you have? Well, I don't blame you. The passage I quoted was correctly translated and in context. What else could you say?
  The fact is, there is only ONE way to take this verse in Isaiah. Jehovah sent Jehovah. It says it plain and clear. There really is no arguing with a verse like this.
  I would like to know, how was it meant to be taken and how am I "forcing" modern views on it; when there is only one way to take it?

  Again, your view is the only acceptable one. Simply stated, if your view is correct, then the Lord Jehovah sending the Lord Jehovah clearly shows two Lord Jehovah's. In language, you do not send yourself.

  Also, please note, since you are so big on context yourself, all around Isaiah 44 the context is discussing false gods of the pagans. Your inclusion and constant versing of the words, "the Lord Jehovah sent the Lord Jehovah," are your words and do not appear in scripture at all. Yet, you wish to sound like an educated person voicing what you claim is clearly written and claiming yours is the only acceptable view. Sorry, but that fits my definition of sham scholarship.

  Also, I'd like to know what your faith or religion is. You seem to disagree with everyone.

  Odd, but you seem to be the only one stating I disagree with everyone.

  I follow and adhere to no specific religious view anymore, but simply try to live my life peaceful and respectful of others. I see good and bad in all religious viewpoints and have come to believe that none actually follow Christs example of loving one another. They are all a snare and a racket, in my opinion.

  Like I earlier stated, belief in the trinity or nonbelief, is an endless discussion that really leads nowhere, but I do hold an opposing view and will voice it when I feel needed to. Belief that Jesus is God is not what scriptures state is necessary for salvation, belief that he is the Son of God, is.

  1 John:14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
  15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

  I am skeptical of many passages in the Bible, as it has been transcribed and translated many times over throughout the centuries. Yet, the gist of Jesus' message of love remains. I believe in a God, but not the one taught by either the Watchtower or mainstream religions. You all teach a bloodthirsty evil God bent on destroying any who do follow adamantly things written long ago that clearly are unloving.

  So, I am of no particular faith or religion and do my best to follow Jesus' actual words, not what some other man tells me he really meant.

  Lew W

  Edited by - DakotaRed on 28 November 2002 13:58:35
• 

  JosephMalik

  Joseph, there's one problem with your belief. There Bible clearly says there is ONE God; ONE creator; and ONE who is worthy of worship.

  SwedishChef,

  No it does not say any such thing. In fact it identifies many Gods, two creators, and at least two worthy of worship. There is only one Being called true God, identified by one single name in fact but that is another matter.

  1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

  This verse proves that there are two separate Beings that exist with the one Being or person that is a man Christ Jesus serving the interests of the second called the one God.

  Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

  Which makes the trinity doctrine go away period.

  James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

  This makes the trinity doctrine go away as well.

  Colossians 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

  This is an example of another creator other that the true God that created the heavens and the earth. This creator made mankind and all government that dominates it to present. John in his introduction teaches the same thing.

  Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

  This commandment given to the Jews under the Law cannot be used to describe New Covenant conditions that would exits at such a future time. It protected Jews from false religion and pagan practices yes, and served its purpose in that regard. Trinitarians depend upon such texts however and attempt to keep such Law. They like James for a time will not accept the reality that things would change when our Lord arrived and became flesh. And this change was even predicted in Hebrew prophecy. Thus we have:

  Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

  We now have new rules, a new covenant and a mediator (someone other than Jewish Priests) to bring us to salvation. The faith has grown up but Trinitarians have not.

  Exodus 43:11-12 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

  This is the same as above. The LORD was their savior but Christ has now taken over this role for all mankind including such Jews. And it goes on and on like this. If Trinitarians insist on keeping the LAWs in this manner, they should also follow all the Jewish rituals and sacrifices involved in such Law, serve in the temple and synagogues of the world and not just pick some features and reject others. The WT does the same thing with its two witness rule, running to OT texts when it suits them and ignoring such regulations in nearly everything else. They both miss the point of how such texts guided the then existing population with its inherent culture to be better human beings acceptable to God.

  Joseph
• 

  gumby

  Trinity....true or false?

  Perhaps instead of researching this dogma, you people should go back further in time to see how this DOGMA originated.

  Long before Christ came to earth they were almost the EXACT same stories of different Godmen. These Godmen, were born of virgins, they were "saviors", they made wine out of water, they baptised, they performed miracles, they were born lowly men in barnes or caves, they had shepards, and wisemen visit their birth.

  It really seems strange that these similarities are mere coincidences.

  So....is Jesus a copycat of former dieties? I don't know.....but I'm looking into material that discusses the subject. If it's true.....it doesn't matter about a trinity. We were lied to AGAIN and we believed it.
• 

  meadow77

  I am now ready to leave this chat that I started.Not because as several of you seem to believe that I have no evidence to support what I believe, but because of the hypocrisy. Herk you yourself said that it's hard to get people to listen to you when you call them liers, and then you say trinitarians are generally dishonest. That was an uncalled for generalization. If this is going to be a free for all than let's call it that.If your'e going to demand others be respectful and not name call than you should hold yourself to the same standards. Second if you will respond to my thread about Jesus and why he was crucified, and what the laws were for the Jews on killing people according to your studies I will address every point you have made, but agian only if you are prepared to offer the same respect that you demand from others.
• 

  thewiz

  sorry but i haven't got time to read ALL the posts, so i'll address the first one ONLY

  Colossians 1:15 - http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Colossians+1%3A15&NIV_version=yes&NASB_version=yes&_version=yes&NLT_version=yes&KJV_version=yes&ESV_version=yes&CEV_version=yes&NKJV_version=yes&KJ21_version=yes&ASV_version=yes&WE_version=yes&YLT_version=yes&DARBY_version=yes&WYC_version=yes&NIV-UK_version=yes&language=english
  How in the world can the "thing" created be just as great as the ONE doing the creating?

  Deut. 7:16 - http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=deut+7%3A16&NIV_version=yes&NASB_version=yes&_version=yes&NLT_version=yes&KJV_version=yes&ESV_version=yes&CEV_version=yes&NKJV_version=yes&KJ21_version=yes&ASV_version=yes&WE_version=yes&YLT_version=yes&DARBY_version=yes&WYC_version=yes&NIV-UK_version=yes&language=english

  clearly shows that the word, "gods" is used; therefore, even THE GOD acknowledges this term or station, etc. JDubs, however will acknowledge that Jehovah is the ONLY God that deserves WORSHIP.

  i don't remember the WTB&TS ever saying that God's Holy Spirit was "inactive", active -yes Also Isa. 52:10 says God has an "arm" -now do you really beive God has an "arm?" A nthropomorphism is VERY common in the bible. it doesn't mean that God ACTUALLY has arms/legs/snow white hair/eyes/mouth/etc. God speaks to us in the bible of a realm we could NEVER hope to imagine or understand in a nthropomorphic terms; ones we CAN hope to understand.

  this is taking longer than i expected, so i'll leave off here, not to mention the arguements presented require much more research (outside the WTB&TS lit.)

  so then, it appears that you adobt the trinity, simply because the WTB&TS doesn't. that's weak. hate 'em if you want, but don't accept pagan beliefs just to take an opposing stand.
• 

  SwedishChef

  Dakota, now that I know exactly how you believe, I realize it was pointless to debate you in the first place. You give little regard to Scripture and you condemn someone who places their faith on it and believes what it says. You condemn someone who hold's to Jesus's words "my words shall not pass away." (Matt 24:35)
  If God can speak the universe into existence, He can preserve His word. I am a Fundamentalist, all that means is I hold the Word of God as the supreme authority.
  You, right now, are in an apostate, unless you repent and trust in Jesus Christ you will be condemned. Thats Bible teaching.