Also, I am curious, for all of you who do not believe that Jesus is God, who do you believe Jesus is?
Undisfellowshipped,
The question would be better phrased if it said? For all of you who do not believe that Jesus is true God or the Supreme Being, who do you believe Jesus is? This is because the term God is not restricted to any one person or being and can be used to describe others good or bad.
Jesus is the human Son of God just as Adam was before sin entered the world. At the beginning of the creation of mankind, this same Jesus known as the Word at that time (a non human Being that was with God) did the literal creating of the this world of mankind and as a consequence is responsible for all government and organizations, the worlds that exists upon it. It is for all such humanity that this Word became flesh and offered Himself in sacrifice. This position as creator of man (not the universe or earth) made him God to the world created by Him. This did not make him the Supreme Being when the term God is used in that sense but it did give Him authority over this creation of His that sinned and needed redemption.
Undisfellowshipped said: Hebrews Chapter 1 makes it clear that Jesus is not an angel.
No, it does not teach any such thing. Hebrews chapter 1 is talking about the Jews of old, messengers (same word as angels) of the covenant, prophets in fact that guided the faith until then through whom God spoke.
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; . . . 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Such angels like Abraham, Moses, David as well as many others were well know to the Jews to whom Hebrews was written. Great as they were this Jesus was much greater and would inherit the throne of David, who as ruler over them was God to them as a natural consequence of his position as ruler. Thus Hebrews continues regarding such angels.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
The answer is No, great as they were. And in prophecy when this firstbegotten (the only human being begotten of God personally since the Word actually created Adam in the beginning)
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. {again: or, when he bringeth again}
Such prophets when resurrected by Him will worship him as will all Jews and the rest of mankind brought to life by this Saviour.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. {And of: Gr. And unto}
It was God that inspired such ministers of the covenants and who inspired them. But none of them ruled over all humanity for this position was reserved for the one that would occupy the throne of David of which was written:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. {righteousness: Gr. rightness, or, straightness} 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
This God, this ruler over all mankind has already been appointed by God, His God in fact to occupy this position when this Throne is established once again here on earth as promised.
Undisfellowshipped said: John 1:3 makes it clear that if Jesus was a created being, He would have had to have created HIMSELF!
No this is not true. Verse three is discussing the creation of man not the universe or animals or fish or even non-human beings. The expression All does not mean everything and the universe itself is not under discussion. John already knew that the LORD (YHWH) created this universe alone. This was known by all Jews long before John wrote his Gospel:
Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
So John focused only on what the Word created personally under the specific direction of the God that this Word was with. And this is what he used as the introduction to his Gospel. The apostle Paul did much the same thing in his letters. Both writers would show that Jesus as our creator and savior retained his right to humanity after his sacrifice and now possesses the nature of both man (human) and the Word (non-human) by Gods expressed permission. Therefore we can address Him either way.
Undisfellowshipped said: Revelation 5:13 shows that if Jesus was a created being, He would have been singing out praise and worship to HIMSELF, right along with all the other creatures!
There is no such thing as what if since how the Word came into existence is not discussed in scripture. Furthermore this point is not even valid for the text identifies the ones John heard speaking which exclude; him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Notice:
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
The Lamb is not speaking is He? If so where?
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 29 November 2002 9:12:54
