The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Reborn2002

  Harvey told me that he no longer likes you Reborn, but instead he prefers You Know becuae You Know lets him hide in the hat.

  Coming from the mouth of a talking donkey... I suppose I should take your word for it.

  I suppose that's for the best anyhow. At least now I know that You Know has someone to keep him company after all the time he has not posted here. You Know used to hide his head in the hat after being humiliated in post after post where he predicted gloom and doom every October, but fitting a 6 foot tall rabbit in a hat.. maybe he could perform miracles after all!

  PS- Are you supposed to be the talking donkey from Shrek? Or the talking ass of Biblical lore? LOL

  Edited by - Reborn2002 on 28 November 2002 15:51:49
• 

  William Penwell

  Gumby,

  I read this sometime back and what you are saying is based on facts. The Jesus myth was based on pre-Christian theologies:

  We have seen that there is no evidence for the historicity of the Christian founder, that the earliest Christian proponents were as a whole either utterly credulous or astoundingly deceitful, and that said "defenders of the faith" were compelled under incessant charges of fraud to admit tthat Christianity was a rehash of older religions. It has also been demonstrated that the world into which Christianity was born was filled with assorted gods and goddesses, as opposed to a monotheistic vacuum. In fact, in their fabulous exploits and wondrous powers many of these gods and goddesses are virtually the same as the Christ character, as attested to by the Christian apologists themselves. In further inspecting this issue we discover that "Jesus Christ" is in fact a compilation of these various gods, who were worshipped and whose dramas were regularly played out by ancient people long before the Christian era....

  Horus of Egypt

  The Egyptian sun god Horus, who predated the Christ character by thousands of years, shares the following in common with Jesus:

  • Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25 th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
  • His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
  • He was of royal descent.
  • At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
  • Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
  • He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
  • He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.
  • Horus walked on water.
  • His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
  • He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
  • Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
  • He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
  • He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "Gods Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
  • He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
  • He came to fulfill the Law.
  • Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
  • Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."

  Furthermore,

  inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph, the "Holy Ghost," impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isisthe original "Madonna and Child."

  
• 

  herk

  SwedishChef,

  I as well as others have already answered every one of your arguments and questions in previous posts. If I answer them again, what assurance do I have that you will read them this time?

  Herk
• 

  gumby

  WP,

  Nice post.

  If you want a full spectrum view of ancient religions and their similarities to Christianity.......get the book "The Jesus Mysteries". This book takes the beliefs of the Eygptians, greeks, etc, and parallel's them to Christian beliefs. The similarities will shock you. There was absolutely nothing new with the Jesus story. Every aspect of his life, death, and teachings, were predated by the pagans belief's in their God's.

  If all this is true.....this is the biggest lie ever told.....not....."THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD".
• 

  William Penwell

  I seemed to recall that the Jesus story was mixed with ancient myths to deify him as Christ by the early Christian followers. This started shortly after his death and continued down to Contantines reign when Christianity was made the state religion.

  Will
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  First of all, let me try to explain that I did not read much of the comments on this Thread (I haven't had that much free time recently) before I posted last night.

  And, obviously, some of you, like Herk, like to use a lot of generalizations with me, saying that I am just like all those other people who believe in the Trinity, etc, etc.

  The same could be said about others, for example, I could say that "so-and-so" is just like everyone else who doesn't believe in the Trinity.

  What exactly is the point in using those generalizations?

  Are you trying to say that I am following some Trinitarian(s)?

  Herk has also claimed that I'm using some sort of "strategy" or something, by always adding "new information" and never responding to old info.

  I posted those Revelation Chapter 5 Scriptures to show one of the main reasons why I believe that Jesus is God.

  Besides, this is a topic of discussion about the Trinity -- people should be able to post any info regarding the Trinity that they want to.

  Also, I had not yet read your previous comments about "husband and wife being one".

  As soon as I have enough free time, I will read through this Thread, and comment on everything that I can.

  Also, I simply posted those "I AM" Verses because another person had said they wanted to post them here.

  I did not state whether or not I think those Verses were saying Jesus was God.

  First, I will reply to your comments about Revelation Chapter 5 in a few minutes...
• 

  DakotaRed

  Nice try, SwedishChef. If one doesn't accept your view as the only one to have, they are unworthy of talking too, ROLFMAO. Yep, just like I said earlier, exactly like the Watchtower.

  I have no need of repenting to your view, my friend. Indeed, it is you who should repent and learn the concept of love that Jesus spoke of.

  Oh and you have no idea of exactly how I believe. I didn't state all my beliefs, only the trinity. But, you keep your head buried in the sand and ignore debate etiquette. You and the Watchtower deserve each other.

  SwedishChef says: My one question is this for Dekota: how can you trust Jesus's message if it was not perfectly preserved?

  I do trust Jesus' message, you obviously don't. You seek the words of others to deny his very words. He plainly and clearly shows he is not God, but the Son of God, sent by God. Your efforts at throwing up a smoke screen to obscure my points by claiming I don't believe in the Bible are both laughable and predictable. You have no reasonable retort or ability to refute them, so instead, you attack and ridicule.

  I thank God everyday that I have escaped the narrow-minded condemnatory mindset you are now plagued with. Unlike you, I am free to discover God and His Son as they truly are, not how I am berated into believing they are.

  It was nice playing with you, SwedishChef, but I think I'll go talk to the adults now.

  Lew W
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Herk said:
  

  Unlike you, I'll deal with each of the texts you've presented, something I wish you had the courage and honesty to do:

  Interesting, Herk, I'm sorry to say that I'm not impressed with your "Christian" attitude.

  You seem to imply that I am a liar or am dishonest and that I have no courage.

  Thank You for your "loving" comments.

  Revelation 5:8 - The Greek word for "fell down" simply means just that. Never does it mean "worship." That's shown by the fact that the word for worship is sometimes used along with it. (See verse 14.)

  I understand that perfectly.

  For example, "Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him." (Acts 10:25) Numerous times people "fell down" before Jesus when they needed his services or he performed some miracle in their behalf. They did this in front of crowds of Jews. If what they did was actual worship, Jesus would have been stoned right on the spot for allowing others to treat him as God. In their minds it would have been extreme blasphemy. Daniel 2:46 says, "Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him." Was Daniel God? Of course not. The Hebrew and Greek words often translated as "worship" also have the simple meaning of paying "homage" or "deep respect" for another human. Other translations bring out that meaning.

  I understand all that perfectly.

  Revelation 5:9 - The Lamb "purchased for God" people of every nation. Did he purchase them for himself or for God? When you purchase something for someone else, you are obviously not that someone else.

  Hmmm, well, here is a Scripture that says that Jesus redeemed people for Himself:

  Titus 2:14: who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works.

  But I do agree that Revelation 5:9 is saying that He purchased them for the Father.

  In the Scriptures, most of the time, whenever The Father and Jesus are mentioned in the same Verses, The Father is called God, and Jesus is distinguished because they are SEPARATE PERSONS.

  Revelation 5:10 - The Lamb made priests for God, not for himself. The elders and creatures in heaven are obviously not addressing the Lamb as God. Instead, they praise him for what he has done for God, not for himself.

  I understand perfectly.

  Revelation 5:11 - The One sitting upon the throne that is surrounded by the angels is not the Lamb. It is God. (Verses 1, 13)

  The Lamb sits on His Father's Throne:

  Revelation 7:17: for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

  There are other Verses in Revelation that say that the Lamb sits with the Father on His Father's Throne.

  Revelation 5:12 - The Lamb is said to be worthy to "receive." What does he "receive"? "Riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." Does he "receive" these wonderful things from creatures? No. He receives them from God. Only God could grant him such things, and therefore the Lamb is not God. He receives from God just as other persons also do.

  Correction -- The Only One who could grant Jesus such things is THE FATHER.

  Also, please notice another important Verse here which show THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY "receiving" the same things that the Lamb "receives":

  Revelation 4:11: "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for you created all things, and because of your desire they existed, and were created!"

  So, using your reasoning, who "granted" those blessings to the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY?

  Revelation 5:13 - Again the creatures in heaven speak to God, not to the Lamb, when they say the Lamb is worthy to receive from God. Showing that the Lamb and God are not one and the same, the verse is addressed "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb"

  I explained this above, that in the Scriptures, most of the time, whenever The Father and Jesus are mentioned in the same Verses, The Father is called God, and Jesus is distinguished because they are SEPARATE PERSONS.

  The reason for this is because, Jesus is in willing subjection to the Father, and the Father is the God of Jesus.

  In Hebrews Chapter 1, the Father calls Jesus God, the Father commands all angels to worship Jesus, and the Father says Jesus created everything.

  Hebrews Chapter 1 also says that Jesus is NOT an angel.

  Also, Revelation 5:13 shows that the Lamb is NOT a creature! (Either that, or the Lamb is talking to Himself)

  Revelation 5:14 - The verse doesn't say who they worshipped. Surely, as shown by verse 11, it is God, the one seated upon the throne that they surround.

  Surely, as I have shown above, the Lamb is in the "midst of the Father's Throne".

  So, there is no way that you can claim that the Father is the only One receiving worship in Revelation 5:14.

  Now, Undisfellowshipped, will you return to these verses and try to show that my conclusions are wrong? I really doubt it.

  Thanks for your confidence.

  You have the habit of simply moving on and introducing something new, as if what you already wrote needs no analysis, as if it's some sacred pronouncement from heaven that can't be disputed.

  Have you actually been reading my posts and Threads enough to know what my supposed "habits" are?

  I explained above in this Thread that it sometimes takes days or weeks for me to have enough free time to reply to everything.

  That is no way to engage in a discussion where each side is in a position to possibly learn from and be corrected by the other.

  It doesn't seem like you want to "learn" anything. It seems like you want to make a lot of accusations and generalizations about people to me.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  I am definitely going to reply to DakotaRed's Questions about the Trinity.

  First of all, DakotaRed is confusing different Doctrines in his questions.

  I can understand why this would happen, especially for Ex-JW's, because the Watchtower intentionally confuses and mixes up two or three completely different Doctrines, and then they tell JW's that this is what the Trinity Doctrine is.

  Here is the actual Doctrine of the Trinity:

  Three Separate Persons (The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) who are in Unity as One God, all Three Persons having the Nature and Essence and Attributes of The Supreme Being.

  All Three Persons are Co-Eternal, Co-Omniscient, Co-Omnipotent, Co-Almighty.

  The Son is willfully in subjection to the Father and the Holy Spirit is willfully in subjection to the Father and the Son.

  The Trinity Doctrine DOES NOT TEACH the following things:

  That there are Three Separate GODS.

  That the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the SAME PERSON.

  So, now that we have those false beliefs aside, maybe everyone can at least better understand what Trinitarians actually believe.

  Also, when people say that the Trinity cannot be fully comprehended by humans, it is the same as saying that God never at any time being out of existence cannot fully be comprehended by humans.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  DakotaRed said:
  

  Once again, trinitarians come with their disrespect of others beliefs, claiming how it is easily seen in the Bible, assuming that all here believe in the Bible. They post their endless litany of vague and questionable scriptures probably copied and pasted from some web site, but they always fail to view the entire Bible. Just like the dubs, they are right and everyone else is wrong.

  Major, major, major generalizations going on there.

  Since they have decided what is and is not in the Bible for everyone else, may I draw their attention to the following points?

  You certainly may.

  If Jesus is in fact God.....

  1. Why is he called the "firstborn over all Creation"? (Col.1:15; Rev. 3:14; John 1:14)

  In Colossians 1:18, Jesus is called the "Firstborn of the Dead". Was Jesus the first Person who was ever raised from the dead?

  The Greek word for "firstborn" could also be used to signify the honor and pre-eminence that went with being a firstborn.

  Also, there was a different Greek word for "First Created" which was not used in reference to Jesus.

  I could try to explain more info on this later.

  2. Why did he say he did not come of his "own initiative," but was "sent forth"? (John 8:42)

  Easy -- Jesus, the Son, was sent forth by the Father, a SEPARATE PERSON.

  3. Why did Jesus not know the "day and hour" of the great Tribulation, but God did? (Matt. 24:36)

  Good question. Note: Jesus said this while on Earth after He had "emptied Himself" and took on Human Flesh. It is possible that Jesus "blocked out" this information while on Earth.

  Also, since Jesus is in subjection to the Father, the Father decides when the "Day and Hour" will be.

  4. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer? (John 17)

  This is one of the major Trinity misunderstanings that the Watchtower has caused by saying that the Trinity means that Jesus and the Father are the Same Person. That is NOT what the Trinity Doctrine teaches.

  The Trinity Doctrine teaches that The Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all SEPARATE PERSONS. So, Jesus was praying to the Father.

  5. Why did Jesus say, "The Father is greater than I am"? (John 14:28)

  Note: Jesus said this while on Earth after He had "emptied Himself" and took on Human Flesh.

  Also, Jesus does willingly submit to the Father's Will. The Son is in willing subjection to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is in willing subjection to the Father and the Son. The Father is GREATER in Position, but not in Nature or Essence.

  A Husband can be said to be "Greater in Position" than his Wife, but the Husband is not greater in his nature, than the Wife, is he?

  6. How did "he appear for us in God's presence"? (Heb. 9:24)

  Once again, the Father is called God, and Jesus is a SEPARATE PERSON, so there is no problem. Jesus is our Mediator and High Priest to the Father.

  7. Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his Baptism saying, "This is my Son"? (Matt. 3:17)

  Once again, this is one of the major Trinity misunderstanings that the Watchtower has caused by saying that the Trinity means that Jesus and the Father are the Same Person. That is NOT what the Trinity Doctrine teaches.

  The Trinity Doctrine teaches that The Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all SEPARATE PERSONS. So, it was the Father who spoke to Jesus.

  8. How could he further be exalted to a superior position? (Phlp. 2:9, 10)

  Good question. My answer is that the Father exalted Jesus to a superior position than He had while on Earth.

  Because the Bible also states that Jesus became a "little lower than angels" when He came to Earth, so when the Father exalted Jesus, He was exalted to a Superior Position than He had while on Earth.

  I will stop here for now, because I have to do some other things for a while, but I will definitely come back soon.