The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

UnDisfellowshipped

AMEN to Meadow77!
UnDisfellowshipped

Once again, I'm just letting everyone know that I haven't read all of the earlier posts on this Thread, so if I have repeated, or if I do repeat someone else's statements, I apologize.
meadow77

UD-thanx for the support. I understand that as long as this thread has gotten, it's hard to read everything word for word. Keep up the responses though, they are very informative.
UnDisfellowshipped

Some people have said that In John 8:58, Jesus would have said "I have been" instead of "I AM" because Jesus was simply answering the Pharisees' question about whether or not Jesus had existed before Abraham.
However, I would like to point out some things in the context of John Chapter 8:
John 8:23: He said to them, "You are from beneath. I am from Above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.
John 8:24: I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
John 8:25: They said therefore to him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.
Notice, the Pharisees asked Jesus "Who are You?"
John 8:28: Jesus therefore said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father taught Me, I say these things.
John 8:44: You are of your Father, the Devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn't stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I find it very interesting that the Pharisees didn't try to stone Jesus after Jesus called them "Satan-Worshipers", instead, they wait to stone Him until....
John 8:52: Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the Prophets; and You say, 'If a man keeps My Word, he will never taste of death.'
John 8:53: Are You greater than our father, Abraham, who died? The Prophets died. Who do You make Yourself out to be?"
Notice, the Pharisees once again ask Jesus "Who are You?"
John 8:56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day. He saw it, and was glad."
John 8:57: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
John 8:58: Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM."
John 8:59: Therefore they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus was hidden, and went out of the Temple, having gone through the midst of them, and so passed by.
In John 8:58 Jesus answered two of the Pharisees' questions -- 1. "Who are You?" and 2. "Have You seen Abraham?"
The Pharisees didn't try to stone Jesus when He called them "Satan-Worshipers", but yet, when Jesus makes the declaration "I AM", that is when the Pharisees immediately try to stone Jesus -- I would imagine for BLASPHEMY!
I just can't see the Pharisees getting more upset about Jesus saying that He existed before Abraham than when Jesus called them "Satan-Worshipers".
I mean, if Jesus had simply stated "I have been", Jesus could have been saying that He was an angel, and I don't think "Claiming to be an angel" or "Claiming to exist before Abraham" would have been a Stoning-Offense, would it, especially when calling the Pharisees "Satan-Worshipers" wasn't a Stoning-Offense?
Check out the following Verses and you will see the reason why the Pharisees tried to stone Jesus on some different occasions:
John 10:30: "I and the Father are One."
John 10:31: Therefore Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
John 10:32: Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
John 10:33: The Jews answered Him, "We don't stone You for a good work, but for blasphemy: because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
John 5:18: For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Also, if you check out Strong's Bible Dictionary, Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 can both be translated as "I EXIST" or "I AM".
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 1 December 2002 7:7:58
meadow77

That's exacly the point I was trying to make earlier. I mean it's clear the jews did not like Jesus for a number of reasons, but they were legalists! They could only ask to have him put to death for violating one of their specific laws. Any study of the bible, jews, and the laws that they follow would reveal this. It seems to me a clear idea, but I guess it's more complicated for others.
DakotaRed

SwedishChef said: (Matthew 28:17) (Note in the Great Commission that the "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is singular -- Matthew 28:19)
Oddly enough, this alleged "great commission" as so many call it, seems to have been unknown to the disciples. Acts lists them baptizing others and not one includes this command. Now, were the disciples derelect in their practices? Surely the "Great Commission" would have been well known to them, since the one Trinitarians claim they knew was God gave it to them.
Or, could it be another later addition to scriptures, as 1 John 5:7 proved to be?
The ;engths trinitarians go to deny and disprove the simple words Jesus spoke simply amazes me. Yes, they say, Jesus did in fact call another "the ONLY TRUE God," but that is not what he really meant. Yes, he did say the Father was Greater than he, but that is not what he really meant. So, who am I to confuse them with facts?
2 Corinthians 11:3. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (KJV)
The trinity doctrine is so simple, trinitarians cannot even agree amongst themselves as to it's exact nature. Of course, it was also so simple, it took over 4 centuries to formulate too. But, challenge the validity of it and watch how the trinitarians often go beserk. Odd that I rarely see non-trinitarians going so beserk when confronted by a trinitarian.
Believe as you wish and feel is right for you. For me, I will trust the simple words of Jesus as he spoke them. All translations have Jesus at John 17:3 syaing the father is the only true God, none state differently. Yet, all the other scriptures the disciples wrote have been translated over and over into differing words and views and are open to much interpretation.
You know, when you look plainly at Jesus' simple words and acts, you feel a clam come over you and realize there is simplicity in Jesus. Practice love to all and take his words to heart. If says the Father is greater than he and that He is the only true God, that is good enough for me.
I now return you to your regulary scheduled ignoring and ranting.
Lew W
UnDisfellowshipped

Lew, I agree 100% with this statement:
You know, when you look plainly at Jesus' simple words and acts, you feel a calm come over you and realize there is simplicity in Jesus. Practice love to all and take his words to heart.
AMEN Brother DakotaRed!
UnDisfellowshipped

DakotaRed,
This is the Great Commission of Baptism that Jesus gave:
"Baptize in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
Notice, it says Name (singular), so it is saying that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are all known by One Name.
In the Old Testament, this Name was Yahweh/Jehovah.
And what Name would this be in the New Testament?
I believe that the One Name in the New Testament is JESUS -- The Name "JESUS" or "YAHSHUA" or "YESHUA" means "YAHWEH SAVES" or "YAHWEH THE SAVIOR".
It seems to me that the Name JESUS would be an appropriate Name for the Father and the Son and the Spirit.
And I believe that is why in Acts and other Scriptures, people are Baptized in the Name of Jesus.
DakotaRed

Und, I can appreciate your thought, but see it differently. To arrive at this, you again have to disregard Jesus' statements about the Father being the only true God. Many scholars are questioning the veracity of the Great Commission as related to the Father, son and holy spirit, but proof positive has yet to be found. Still, there is much evidence that it may have been added later, as was the father, son and holy ghost at 1 John 5:7.
You also have to disregard Jesus' many other words about not knowing what the Father does, having to be taught by the Father, doing not his own will, but the will of his Father, finishing his Fathers work, being granted all authority by his Father and so on. If an equal member of a godhead or a God himself, as his Father, he would already have this. He would not need life granted him by the Father;
John 5:26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27. And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Another intersting comment made by Jesus occurs just a few verses later;
John 5:30. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Since you believe he is God, and he witnessed about God, how could his witnessing about himself not be true?
Food for thought
Lew W
SwedishChef

Dakota, baptism is one that is very confusing to many people, because they don't know what it is. Baptism is not only a public statment of faith, but it is also a picture of what happens internally, to your soul.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
This is what water baptism symbolizes.
Many times in the Bible, especially the book of Acts, baptism is referred to in the spiritual sense.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Now, surely water baptism does not save you, so surely this must be speaking of spiritual baptism, when someone becomes born again.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The great commission still stands, Jesus gave the manner in which we are to baptize, which is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Also, I think it is a cheap tactic to say that verses which do not support your view are "added" or "a mistranslation."

The Trinity

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