The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • herk
    herk

    UnDisfellowshipped,

    I understood your point perfectly. And I spent paragraph after paragraph dealing with it. Still, you seem not to have noticed. Do you actually read what I write at all?

    God is said to be "alone holy." So, according to the way you reckon things, there is absolutely no one else who is holy. Yet, the Bible speaks of "thousands" who are "holy ones." So, you need to loosen up a bit and let the Bible speak for itself rather than constantly be trying to find loopholes for proving your Trinity theory.

    Jesus was not always the Lord. God made him such. God has authority to make someone king, priest, prophet, judge, or lord. He made Samuel a judge and David a king and Isaiah a prophet. He also exalted Jesus to the position of Lord.

    • "All authority has been given to me." (Mt 28:18)
    • "The Father ... has given all things into his hand." (Jn 3:35)
    • "God has made this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ." (Ac 2:36)
    • "Him God has exalted ... to be Prince and Savior." (Ac 5:31)
    • "He raised him ... far above all principality and power and might and dominion." (Eph 1:21)
    • "God also has highly exalted him." (Php 2:9)
    • "Angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him." (1 Pe 3:22)

    This will probably be my last post to you, UnDisfellowshipped. I think I fell into a trap. I'm merely wasting my time if I'm dealing with someone who has a mind completely closed even to what the Scriptures say.

    The above texts simply can't be misunderstood. But judging by your usual response, I'm sure you will find a way.

    herk

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    I did apologize for not using good logic in the point I was trying to make in Revelation 5:13.

    However, as I said before, I still stand behind the other things I said, even though I may not have made my points very clear.

    The First Commandment of the Ten Commandments:

    Exodus 20:2: "I am Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
    Exodus 20:3: You shall have no other gods except Me.

    Deuteronomy 5:7: You shall have no other gods except Me.

    2nd Kings 17:35: with whom Yahweh had made a Covenant, and charged them, saying, You shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them

    Joshua 23:16: When you disobey the Covenant of Yahweh your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods, and bow down yourselves to them; then will the anger of Yahweh be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from off the good land which He has given to you.

    Revelation 19:10: I fell down before his feet to worship him. He [the angel] said to me, "Look! Don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers who hold the Testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy."

    Revelation 22:8: Now I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had shown me these things.
    Revelation 22:9: He said to me, "Make sure you don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers, the Prophets, and with those who keep the Words of this Book. Worship God."

    Isaiah 40:25: To whom then will you liken Me, that I should be equal to him? says the Holy One.

    Isaiah 42:8: I am Yahweh, that is My Name; and I will not give My glory to another, neither My praise to engraved images.

    Isaiah 43:10: You are My witnesses, says Yahweh, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.
    Isaiah 43:11: I, even I, am Yahweh; and besides Me there is no savior.

    Isaiah 44:6: Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Yahweh of Hosts: I am the First, and I am the Last; and besides Me there is no God.

    Isaiah 44:8: Don't fear, neither be afraid: haven't I declared to you of old, and shown it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed, there is not. I don't know any Rock.

    Isaiah 44:24: Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth (who is with Me?)

    Isaiah 45:5: I am Yahweh, and there is none else; besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
    Isaiah 45:6: that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides Me: I am Yahweh, and there is no one else.

    Isaiah 45:21: Declare you, and bring it forth; yes, let them take counsel together: who has shown this from ancient time? Who has declared it of old? Haven't I, Yahweh? And there is no God else besides Me, a Just God and a Savior; there is no one besides Me.
    Isaiah 45:22: Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is none else.
    Isaiah 45:23: By Myself have I sworn, the Word is gone forth from My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Isaiah 46:9: Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me;
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    But, what does the Bible say about Jesus?

    John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Hebrews 1:6: Again, when He [The Father] brings in the Firstborn [Jesus] into the world He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."

    John 5:23: so that all shall be honoring the Son just as they honor the Father. The one not honoring the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    Philippians 2:10: that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in Heaven, those on Earth, and those under the Earth,
    Philippians 2:11: and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    John 17:5: Now, Father, glorify Me with Your own Self with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.

    Revelation 5:12: saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who has been killed to receive the power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing!"
    Revelation 5:13: I heard every created thing which is in Heaven, on the Earth, under the Earth, on the sea, and everything in them, saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion, forever and ever! Amen!"

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Herk,
    Would you happen to know the name of the text which the NIV and other Bibles were translated from?

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Isaiah 42:8: I am Yahweh, that is My Name; and I will not give My glory to another, neither My praise to engraved images.

    Thanx Undisfellowshipped, I've been looking for that verse. :-)

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Herk said:

    God is said to be "alone holy." So, according to the way you reckon things, there is absolutely no one else who is holy.

    Please show me where I "reckoned things that way", because for some reason I do not remember posting that.

    If I remember correctly, I was trying to make the point that since the Scriptures state that God is the ONLY Holy One, and then the Bible also says that others are Holy, it WAS NOT excluding other people from being Holy.

    I was trying to make a comparison with John 17:3 where it says that the Father is the Only True God, that would not necessarily exclude the Son from being God, depending on what the other Scriptures say.

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Herk, you used these verses which "disprove" the Deity of Christ.

    "All authority has been given to me." (Mt 28:18)
    "The Father ... has given all things into his hand." (Jn 3:35)
    "God has made this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ." (Ac 2:36)
    "Him God has exalted ... to be Prince and Savior." (Ac 5:31)
    "He raised him ... far above all principality and power and might and dominion." (Eph 1:21)
    "God also has highly exalted him." (Php 2:9)
    "Angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him." (1 Pe 3:22)

    Now what about these verses:

    Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
    Isaiah 42:8: I am Yahweh, that is My Name; and I will not give My glory to another, neither My praise to engraved images.

    From reading these passages, it sounds like the Lord Jehovah will not share glory with anyone or anything, and yet that is what He has done with Jesus. "...and the Word was God."

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Question: How can God be three and one at the same time?
    Answer: He cannot be three and one in the same sense. In what sense can He be one and three? A perfectly satisfactory answer to this question is manifestly impossible from the very nature of the case: (1) God is infinite, we are finite. He "dwells in the light no man can approach unto." Our attempts at a philosophical explanation of the tri-unity of God is an attempt to put the facts of infinite being into the forms of finite thought, and of necessity can be, at the best, only partially successful. This much we know, that God is essentially one, and that He is also three. There is but one God: but this one God makes Himself known to man as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and they are sparate personalities. ---R.A. Torrey.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped
    "All authority has been given to me." (Mt 28:18)
    "The Father ... has given all things into his hand." (Jn 3:35)
    "God has made this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ." (Ac 2:36)
    "Him God has exalted ... to be Prince and Savior." (Ac 5:31)
    "He raised him ... far above all principality and power and might and dominion." (Eph 1:21)
    "God also has highly exalted him." (Php 2:9)
    "Angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him." (1 Pe 3:22)

    I believe each one of those Verses are describing what the Father did for Jesus after Jesus was Resurrected, which was in fulfillment of Jesus' Prayer for the Father to RESTORE the glory that Jesus had as The Word/Logos before the world began.

    All of those things needed to be RESTORED to Jesus because when Jesus became a Human, Jesus became "a little lower than angels" and Jesus had "emptied Himself".

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 2 December 2002 0:28:58

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    Now what about these verses:
    Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
    Isaiah 42:8: I am Yahweh, that is My Name; and I will not give My glory to another, neither My praise to engraved images.

    Another prime example of placing the doctrine in scripture. Remember your claim of read in context? Your turn. Read before it and after it and you will see the discussion was comparing to the false gods of the land, the multiple gods, I might add. You cannot make the scriptures fit your view that easy.

    In regards your comment about scholars and 1 John 5:7, I find it odd you also say the name Yahweh. Your blessed King James, which has never been proven false and is infallible, according to you, identifies the name as Jehovah. Odd how you can accept scholars viewpoints on changing the name after all this time, but not when they show proof positive of a scripture being added later.

    I ask, if you believe he so perfectly preserved his word, why your acceptance on the change of the name from that word? If he preserved his word, why didn't he also preserve his name pronunciation? Could it be that he is now allowing the needed corrections to come to light as to what man has added? After all, a warning was given about that being done.

    Lew W

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Herk said:

    Jesus was not always the Lord. God made him such. God has authority to make someone king, priest, prophet, judge, or lord. He made Samuel a judge and David a king and Isaiah a prophet. He also exalted Jesus to the position of Lord.

    Please show me a Scripture that says God madesomeone else
    a God to be worshiped and honored equally with Himself.

    I would be very interested in seeing a Verse like that, because it would completely contradict the First Commandment.

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 2 December 2002 0:46:3

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 2 December 2002 0:47:14

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