The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

fjtoth

Earnest,
Another question that puzzles me concerns their phrase "eternally begotten." To be begotten means to be procreated or sparked into life. That signifies a beginning. So the person who is begotten could not have existed eternally in the past. There came a time when he was begotten, when the first spec of his existence showed a flicker of life. So, to be eternally begotten would require never reaching the point of birth as a full person. Each time the begettal took place it would soon be repeated and then repeated and repeated ad infinitum.
fjtoth
SwedishChef

"However, Bruce M. Metzger wrote in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament: "No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eigth or ninth century ... supports [theos]; all ancient versions presuppose [hos] or [ho]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading [theos]." Today, most translations show their disagreement with the KJV by omitting any reference to "God" in this text. Today, most translations show their disagreement with the KJV by omitting any reference to "God" in this text."
Am I really supposed to believe that this passage of Scripture is a mistranslation just because you say it is? I'm sure there are many other scholars out there who say different. Yes, other translations omit the word God, but they weren't translated from the Textus Receptus. All the literal translations and then some say "God was manifest in the flesh."
"Revelation 1:8 - It is plain from simply reading this verse that the Father, not Jesus, is the Alpha and Omega and the Lord God Almighty. Jesus is never called the Lord God Almighty. How do you answer this, SwedishChef?"
I really have no idea where you got this from. From the first time I read this verse it was plain and clear that Jesus is talking. You know how? By reading it in context. Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Who did they pierce? Jesus. Who is talking in the very next verse? Jesus. Verse 8: "I am Alpha and Omega..."
"Genesis 1:26 - Trinitarians and JWs say that God was speaking here to Christ. However, the Jews have long held that God was speaking to "all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left." (1 Ki 22:19-22; Job 38:7)"
The OT word most frequently used for God is plural in form.
Genesis 11:7,8 "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city."
Now the LORD was the one who scattered them, but he says "let US go down".
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"
Now read this:
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
It says man is made after the IMAGE OF GOD. It does not say the image of God and His angels.
Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for US? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
"Matthew 28:19 - This verse simply mentions the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It says nothing about them being God or equal persons within the Godhead. How do you answer this, SwedishChef? Or, as in all the examples above, are you unable to give an answer?"
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Notice how it says "in the name", and not "names"? That is because they are equal.
Philippians 2:6 Who,[Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
"1 John 5:7 - Up above, Navigator gave a fine explanation of why this verse is not found in all the better translations. Why do you choose to ignore something so vital to knowing the truth about God and Christ? How do you answer this, SwedishChef? Could it be you have no answer?"
Notify me on what the "better translations" are. The KJV is practically a perfect translation of the Textus Receptus. The other text...the Nessels, I believe, was actually found in the Vatican. (some say in a garbage can). In any case, I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of there.
gumby

Qoute:...there are twice as many which validate Christianity. (than that against it)
Gee...I guess it makes it true then! Good reasoning.Could it be because Christianity prevailed in the 3rd century and killed and tortured those that disagreed with it and has come to be a powerful empire today?
SwedishChef

Joseph, the Hebrew apparently has no word for a "lesser" god. And therefore, you must read in context. Fortunately for you, the translators already took context into account. For Bible teaching is that there is one God.
The Hebrew word "'elohiym" can be anything from a graven image to a prophet to Jehovah depending the context it is used in.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Now matter how you view it, Bible teaching is that you are not to call anyone God but God. Thomas did this. He called Jesus God. Jesus did not rebuke the statement but accepted it.
Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
We are not to worship any god but the Jehovah. There are several accounts in scripture where someone fell at someone elses feet and was immediately corrected.
Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
There are many many accounts in Scripture where Jesus is worshipped.
Jesus was worshipped by ... ... the wise men (Matthew 2:11) ... the disciples in the boat (Matthew 14:33) ... the women at the empty tomb (Matthew 28:10) ... the disciples at His ascension (Matthew 28:17) (Note in the Great Commission that the "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is singular -- Matthew 28:19) ... the man born blind, who Jesus healed (John 9:38) ... all God's angels (Hebrews 1:6)
Not to mention in the Revelation the Lamb is praised and worshipped. Phillipians says "every knee shall bow" to Jesus.
SwedishChef

Now Gumby...surely someone as "scholarly" as yourself would know the difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the true Christians. The Catholic church has the bloody history. It's doctrines are easily proven false and its motiveS have been only to gain power and riches.
The true Christians, particularly the Baptist sect, has had no connection to the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, the true Christians were getting tortured and killed as well! The Bible itself condemns Rome and predicts the rise of the Roman Catholic Church (the mother of harlots).
Look it up if you don't believe me. The Foxes book of martyres is a good one.
JosephMalik

Joseph, the Hebrew apparently has no word for a "lesser" god. And therefore, you must read in context. Fortunately for you, the translators already took context into account. For Bible teaching is that there is one God.
The Hebrew word "'elohiym" can be anything from a graven image to a prophet to Jehovah depending the context it is used in.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Now matter how you view it, Bible teaching is that you are not to call anyone God but God.
SwedishChef,
Not true. I showed you the verses. You agree that there is no word for a lesser god or lower case g for that matter and context must be considered as there are many applications. And I have shown you that context permits humans to be called God the way Moses was. How can you say no? Exodus 20:3 is not of the same context as Exodus 7:1 thus there is no contradiction. The verse does not say you are not to call anyone God but God. You say that but the verse does not. Thou shalt have no other gods before me is talking about what? Idol worship if you took the time to look up the very next verse you would see such idols discussed in detail. The word God does not identify any specific person or Being as shown. A name does that but the term God does not.
SwedishChef said: Thomas did this. He called Jesus God. Jesus did not rebuke the statement but accepted it.
Because Jesus knew more about such use than the Jews did. Thomas was not wrong and Thomas did not say that Jesus was true God did he? No.
Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Great and this was the proper method of worship and understanding for such Jews to whom it was written, but the verse does not say that under the new covenant this would continue to be Law for the Faith. This LORD is not jealous of His Son the way he was of some other god. The scriptures teach differently now for they say:
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
So the text you use is not permanent and things would change when the Son became flesh. That is something I noticed long ago. You quote scripture as if nothing in the future will alter them. The faith grows as new information is added and we must grow with it. That is also why Jews had to be born again. Else we would all be worshipping in the temple, killing goats, and offering sacrifices for our sins.
SwedishChef said: We are not to worship any god but the Jehovah. There are several accounts in scripture where someone fell at someone elses feet and was immediately corrected.
Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Well how about that. The angel did not qualify as His Son. Is that not what I just brought out. Sure he was corrected. A lesson well learned. But then you admit.
SwedishChef said: There are many many accounts in Scripture where Jesus is worshipped.
Jesus was worshipped by ... ... the wise men (Matthew 2:11) ... the disciples in the boat (Matthew 14:33) ... the women at the empty tomb (Matthew 28:10) ... the disciples at His ascension
Bingo! Now you agree with what I have just said. But nowhere do such verses teach that Jesus is the true God or our Supreme Being.
SwedishChef said: (Matthew 28:17) (Note in the Great Commission that the "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is singular -- Matthew 28:19)
Then tell me. What is the name of the Father so that I can fulfill the requirement this text places upon the one attempting to obey it? YHWH. Ok so far. What is the name of the Son? Jesus? That will do. What is the name of the Holy Spirit? ? ? ? ? Do you know? No one has ever answered this question yet. Name in the sense or persons or Beings that make up the nature of God is not under discussion here.
The expression name means many things. But we are talking about the Faith a new and greatly altered Faith in fact and all the components that make up this faith. The Father, the Son, and all dedicated ones called Holy Spirit make up this singular Faith. Disciples are called Holy Spirit in scripture in several texts and this text describes the legal basis for the new covenant into which such ones are to be baptized. It is not necessary however to say such words every time someone is baptized. Simply baptizing in the name of Jesus is enough to commission such a disciple. This commandment of our Lord is simply the legal basis for this Faith's authority and existence.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 30 November 2002 21:43:25
gumby

Swedish chef
Now Gumby...surely someone as "scholarly" as yourself would know the difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the true Christians
The difference....there is none! They are both wrong.
I don't want part of a God who kills good people that don't believe as you do.
The true Christian God as you call him isn't how I see God. The true Christian God is a literalist idea of who Jesus was and in no way represents how he was really viewed untill the literalist Christians demanded it was historical FACT and not allegorical.
Do some more re-search then we'll talk.
SwedishChef

"Every eye shall see Him." Every eye; the eye of every living man, whoever he is. None will be able to prevent it. The voice of the trumpet, the brightness of the flame, shall direct all eyes to Him, shall fix all eyes upon Him. Be it ever so busy an eye, or ever so vain an eye, whatever employment, whatever amusement it had the moment before, will then no longer be able to employ it, or to amuse it. The eye will be lifted up to Christ, and will no more look down upon money, upon books, upon land, upon houses, upon gardens.
Your eyes and mine. O awesome thought! Blessed Jesus! May we not see Thee as through tears; may we not then tremble at the sight!
"And the Lord turned and looked upon Peter....And Peter went out and wept bitterly." So shall it be, but in a different sense, with sinners at the day of judgment. The eye of Jesus as their judge shall be fixed upon them, and the look shall awake their sleeping memories, and reveal their burdens of sin and shame--countless and cursed crimes, denials worse then Peter's, since life-long and unrepented of, scoffings at love that wooed them, and despising of mercy that called them--all these shall pierce their hearts as they behold the look of Jesus.
And they shall go out and flee from the presence of the Lord--go out never to return, flee even into the outer darkness, if so be they may hide them from that terrible gaze. And they shall weep bitterly--weep as they never wept before, burning, scalding tears, such as earth's sorrow never drew--weep never to be comforted, tears never to be wiped away. Their eyes shall be fountains of tears, not penitential and healing, but bitter and remorseful--tears of blood--tears that shall rend the heart in twain, and deluge the soul in fathomless woe.
--C.H. Spurgeon
UnDisfellowshipped

Please do not think that I am ignoring any of the comments here.
I am just notifying everyone that I am going to busy for a couple of days working on a Thread that will include all of the information and Quotes that absolutely 100% prove beyond any doubt that the Watchtower protects pedophiles and punishes victims.
It is going to have everything included.
I will try my best to post some replies here as soon as I can.
I do want to say that I think Herk still doesn't understand what I was saying about Jesus and the Father being distinguished from each other when they are mentioned in the same Verse.
All you have to do is read the Bible, and you will see that throughout the entire Bible, The Father is called God most of the time if Jesus is mentioned in the same Verse.
Also, I am going to admit that my logic on a few points was messed up:
For example, I do sincerely Thank everyone for helping me see that my logic was not working in the point I was trying to make about all of the created beings in Revelation 5:13.
However, I went back and checked out almost everything else I had posted, and I still stand behind what I said.
I do admit that I did not explain very well what the point was that I was trying to make on a few of my comments to Herk, and I will try to elaborate and explain in more detail what my point was.
Just because I did not explain my points very well on a few comments, and because I did post one point that was not very good (the Revelation 5:13 point), I don't think that should be a cause for people to accuse me of "being on drugs", "being dishonest", and "intentionally spreading falsehoods".
Also, I have seen several times on this Thread, people keep saying that "since Jesus called the Father 'The Only True God' in John 17:3, that means Jesus cannot be God".
Here's John 17:3:
"And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."
Well, here's an interesting comparison:
1st Timothy 6:14: that you keep the Commandment spotless, blameless, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1st Timothy 6:15: who in His own time will reveal the Blessed and Only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1st Timothy 6:16: the Only One having immortality, living in light that cannot be approached, whom no one of men saw, nor can see; to whom be honor and everlasting might. Amen.
Now, in those Verses, it says that there is Only One who is our Ruler, King of kings, and Lord of lords, and has immortality.
My question to you is, who is that One? The Father or Jesus Christ?
Revelation 17:14: These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and the ones with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones.
Also, Revelation 15:4 says:
"Who will not fear You, Lord, and glorify Your Name? For You Only are Holy. For all the nations will come and will worship before You, because Your righteousnesses were made known."
That Verse says that there is Only One who is Holy. My question to you is, who is that One? The Father or the Jesus Christ?
Acts 3:14: But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you.
Revelation 3:7: And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia, write: These things says the Holy One, the True One, the One having "the key of David," "the One opening, and no one shuts; and shuts, and no one opens:"
My point in showing those Verses is the following:
1st Timothy 6:15-16 says that there is Only One who is our Ruler, King of kings, Lord of lords, and who has immortality.
Do those Verses exclude anyone else from being our Ruler, King of kings, and Lord of lords?
If so, then Jesus is the One being spoken of because Jesus is definitely the King of kings and Lord of lords.
However, if 1st Timothy 6:15-16 does not exclude anyone else from being Lord of lords and King of kings, then why should John 17:3 exclude anyone else than the Father from being "The Only True God"?
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Revelation 15:4 says that there is Only One who is Holy.
Does that Verse exclude anyone else from being Holy?
The Bible calls the Father and Jesus "The Holy One".
If Revelation 15:4 does not exclude anyone else from being Holy, then why should John 17:3 exclude anyone else than the Father from being "The Only True God"?
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1st Corinthians 8:6: but to us there is One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and One Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
If that Verse is saying that the Father is the Only One who is God, then that Verse is also saying that Jesus is the Only One who is Lord.
If that is the case, why does the New Testament call the Father Lord, because Jesus should be the Only Lord.
Is the Father not our True Lord along with Jesus?
Why does the New Testament call Jesus God, because the Father should be the Only God.
Is Jesus not our True God along with the Father?
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Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 1 December 2002 0:29:20
SwedishChef

UnDisfellowshipped,
Ofcourse these passages can't mean what it says, that would mean Jesus is really God. ;-)

The Trinity

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