Gumby, Will, I stated many posts ago that there is no point in reasoning with me on this issue. I believe the the Bible is the Word of God. Personally, I really don't care what you think, it is your loss. So stop wasting your time trying to convince me that the Bible is false.
The Trinity
by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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William Penwell
SC,
I agree with you. We should all have respect for others beliefs and not try to change each other to our point of view. I believe that if we were created in the image of God, he gave us a mind to think and reason with. It is the most divine thing we can do to use what God gave us.
Will
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LucidSky
And Jesus answered and said, "But whom do you say that I am?"
Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, with only an economic subordination within God, but causing no division which would make the substance no longer simple."
And Jesus answering, said, "What?"LMAO @ herk!! <sigh> It seems even Jesus had a hard time with the Trinity.
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LucidSky
Typical Unitarian Beliefs
I wrote this a while back trying to define the three elements of the Trinity. Incomplete, but here's what I came up with.
Yahweh God Is the only true God Is only one Is the Father Is a spirit being Is unlimited and dependent upon nothing Is eternal, without beginning and without end (unbegotten) Is almighty and absolute in power and authority Is infinite and absolute in knowledge and wisdom Is the origin and source of all creation
The Holy Spirit Is power, energy or influence acting dynamically Is exerted by the one true God Is used to accomplish Gods will and purpose Is something which originates from God but acts externally to Him affecting other things Is something which can be imparted to other living beings
Yahshua Is the first creation of the Father, as His only begotten Son Is the agent of creation (Master Worker) through whom the Father created all things Is eternal, but has an origin or beginning Is the Spokesman (Word) for God and The Wisdom of God Is limited and dependent on the Father Is limited in power Is limited in knowledge Is limited in existence Is a divine being, but had divested himself of deity to become lower than the gods and die as a man Is the ruler of Gods Kingdom over all things
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SwedishChef
First of all, Herk, I'm not a protestant either. I am a Baptist, which has never been traced to the Catholic Church. Second, stop it with the "typical Trinitarian" stuff. That gets quite old. I can say your the typical Unitarian till I'm blue in the face, and it will do nothing but get you annoyed as well.
This will be a rather lengthy post, and probably my last one on the subject. It is basically a reiteration of all the things I've said. You Unitarians have to explain away an aweful lot of Scripture.Luke 22:70 "Luke 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am."
"The Son of God." This name is given to Christ forty times. Besides this the synonymous expressions, "His Son," "My Son," are of frequent occurrence. That this name, as used of Christ, is a distinctly divine name appears John 5:18-- "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (Proof more that that Jesus was crusified because of the charge of blasphemey. Another one: Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? Indeed the Jews were right, no one can forgive sins but God. And this makes Jesus God.)John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
Note that Jesus is called the "image of the invisible God" in Colossians 1:15.
The identity "The Son of God" is one that makes Jesus equal to God. This is proved out not only by Scripture, but by analyzing the customs of the day. In those days, the king would often send his son, the prince, in his place. The prince would have the full authority of the king in this sense. Whatever that prince said, it had the full authority of his father the king. This picture is presented in Scripture. Jesus was sent from God having the full authority of God. I think it is safe to say that Jesus is not the Son of God in the same sense that we humans have sons and daughters.
Although the nature of God isn't as clearly presented in the Old Testament as it is in the New, the Trinity is evident in the Old Testament also.
Deuteronomy 4:35 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"God is not one is the same sense that He is three. In what sense can He be three and one? The Lord God is ONE Lord. I believe that there is ONE true God. But this God makes Himself manifest in the form of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Here we see that God addresses Himself as we. He also says that God created man in HIS image, it makes no mention of angels in this entire passage.
Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."
Again, we are made in the image of God. No mention of angels anywhere.
Genesis 11:7,8 "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city."
No mention of angels here either! The Lord addresses Himself as being plural. The Lord Himself went down to confound the languages.
Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for US? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Again, the Lord identifies Himself as being plural.
Isaiha 44:6 says: "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
The LORD King of Israel and the LORD of Hosts speak as one. They identify as the on and only God.
Many Old Testament prophecies identify the Messiah as God Himself. This you cannot deny.
Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
The Messiah is identifed has having an everlasting past.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Here, the Messiah is idenified as the Mighty God and the everlasting Father.
Zechariah 2:10,11 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee."
Another prophecy about the Messiah. Jehovah says He will dwell in the midst of His people. In the later verse we see that Jehovah is prophecied to send Jehovah.
Many less-known prophecies in the Old Testament identify Messiah as God.
Undisfellowshipped pointed out a good one.
Isaiah 40:3: The voice of one who cries, Prepare you in the wilderness the way of Yahweh; make level in the desert a highway for our God.
Matthew 3:1: In those days, John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying,
Matthew 3:2: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"
Matthew 3:3: For this is he who was spoken of by Isaiah the Prophet, saying, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ready the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight."
Matthew 3:11: I indeed baptize you in water for repentance, but He who comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.In the Old Testament, Jehovah prophecied to have a fore-runner. It was Jesus who had a fore-runner.
Here is another one:
Isaiah 11:11-13 "And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD."
This is a prophecy of the Jesus' betrayal for 30 pieces of silver. Exept the Lord Jehovah is the one who is being priced.
The New Testament further identified the Messiah as God.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
This says that Jesus is God.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Do you really think this a mistranslation? For this verse fits in perfect context with the rest of Scripture. The Bible clearly states that there is one creator. One Divine Being Who placed the universe into being.
Isaiah 44:24, Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"
So, who created the universe? Jehovah. Now compare this passage to what it says about Jesus.
Colossians 1:16,17 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
1: 10 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."By these two passages we see that Jesus is the who created all things. The Bible says that Jehovah created all things. It also says that Jesus created all things. And there are not two creators.
Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
The only one who is good is God. Does this mean Jesus was not good? Jesus in many cases claims the title good for Himself. He also claims the title "Alpha and Omega", "King of Kings", etc.
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." ---Jesus claims the title good.
Revelation 1:7,8 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
He Who was pierced decends from the clouds. He Who was pierced declares Himself the Alpha and Omega.
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Revelation 19:16 And he [Jesus] hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.Jesus is called the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. I Timothy 3:16 idenifies Jesus as King of Kings as well.
Also, prophecies in the Old Testament about the great day of the Lord (the second return of Christ) identify Jehovah as being the one who will pour out his wrath. Compare this to the passages in the New Testament about Christ returning.
Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
We see here that falling at someones feet counts as worship. The Bible forbids the worshipping of anyone but the one true God.Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."
Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:"
Exodus 20:3 " Thou shalt have no other gods before me."Jesus was worshipped on numerous occasions. Jesus was worshipped by ... ... the wise men (Matthew 2:11) ... the disciples in the boat (Matthew 14:33) ... the women at the empty tomb (Matthew 28:10) ... the disciples at His ascension (Matthew 28:17)... the man born blind, who Jesus healed (John 9:38) ... all God's angels (Hebrews 1:6).
Philippians 2:10,11 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
This is Worship.John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
No man hath seen God the Father, the Son is who people have seen.
Colossians 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God..."
John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"
John 10:30 [Jesus said] "I and my Father are one."
Combine these verses and what do you get? That Jesus is the visible image of the Father.
You say, it doesn't make sense. Well, guess what...we can't understand the existence of God!
He "dwells in the light no man can approach unto."1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
It is a mystery, but it says it clear and plain. God was manifest in the flesh.
Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
In verse says God purchased the church with His own blood. But was it not Jesus who died on the cross and shed His blood?
If any of you actually read all this, you must come to the conclusion that Jesus is God.
"God is infinite, we are finite. He "dwells in the light no man can approach unto." Our attempts at a philosophical explanation of the tri-unity of God is an attempt to put the facts of infinite being into the forms of finite thought, and of necessity can be, at the best, only partially successful. This much we know, that God is essentially one, and that He is also three. There is but one God: but this one God makes Himself known to man as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and they are sparate personalities." --R.A. Torrey
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JosephMalik
LucidSky,
Well they are close. I see a few problems. But I have spoken with Anthony Buzzard about them and perhaps they will consider that information. Who knows? He liked Beyond Trinitarianism and told me so at a conference where we exchanged talks.
Joseph
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JosephMalik
"The Son of God" is one that makes Jesus equal to God.
SwedishChef,
That is what I expected you to say so I did not answer this question until there was a commitment made by someone on this phrase.
Then was Adam equal to God? Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Are the angels equal to God? Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
How about disciples, do they become equal to God?
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The Jews did not understand the expression well as it means much more than the forgiveness of sin they sought after. But this expression embraces the thought of Justification and basically means Justified and uncondemned. Having a right standing before God as Adam did before sin entered the world and as angles and faithful disciples led by the Spirit of God have.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (He who NAS) was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 3 December 2002 18:9:9
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SwedishChef
Ok, maybe that wasn't my last post. :-)
Joseph,
You said,
"That is what I expected you to say so I did not answer this question until there was a commitment made by someone on this phrase."Joseph, then you deny scripture. What I said was taken directly from it.
John 5:18 "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."
Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"You said:
Then was Adam equal to God? Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Are the angels equal to God? Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
How about disciples, do they become equal to God?You completely misinterpreting these verses, Joseph. The "sons" of God better translate the "children" of God. See for yourself!
But God only had ONE Son! And this Son was equal with Him, carrying the authority of God on His shoulders.John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.Yes, I do believe that God had ONE Son.
The Jews understood more than you give them credit for. They knew who Jesus was declaring Himself to be -- the great I AM.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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herk
SwedishChef,
Is this a deliberate lie, or is it something you stated in ignorance?
First of all, Herk, I'm not a protestant either. I am a Baptist, which has never been traced to the Catholic Church.
Webster's defines Baptist as "a member or adherent of a denomination of Trinitarian Protestant Christians that are congregational in policy and for the most part doctrinally Calvinistic and maintain that baptism should be administered by immersion to believers only." Deny it all you want. No matter how ashamed you are of being a Protestant, the dictionary says that's what you are.
I can say your the typical Unitarian till I'm blue in the face, and it will do nothing but get you annoyed as well.
Again, either you're lying or speaking in ignorance. There are no "typical" unitarians. There are the JW type and there are other types. I'd spell out the differences, but you're the know-it-all, and you should know what they are. On the other hand, all Trinitarians are alike in what they believe. Their teaching is stated in creeds, dictionaries, and encyclopedias, as well as in statements of faith such as those the Baptists have published.
This will be a rather lengthy post, and probably my last one on the subject. It is basically a reiteration of all the things I've said. You Unitarians have to explain away an aweful lot of Scripture.
What a cop-out! You're getting ready to run, a sure sign that you're overwhelmed by the scriptural testimony against your false, unbiblical and pagan theory.
"The Son of God." This name is given to Christ forty times. Besides this the synonymous expressions, "His Son," "My Son," are of frequent occurrence. That this name, as used of Christ, is a distinctly divine name appears John 5:18-- "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (Proof more that that Jesus was crusified because of the charge of blasphemey.
What a distortion of the Scriptures! You would rather believe the lying Jews than believe Jesus! He never said he was God. That is the false charge that the liars leveled against him. You're just like every other ardent and blind Trinitarian! You prefer to read into the Scriptures something that really isn't there instead of accepting what they actually do say! "Proof" - What a sad commentary this is on how you read the Scriptures. Just because Jesus was accused, you say he was guilty as charged. In this way you show you are just as guilty as those who lied about him to get him executed. Instead of believing what he himself had to say about himself, you prefer to believe the liars.
Indeed the Jews were right, no one can forgive sins but God. And this makes Jesus God.
Yes, the Jews were right in their own eyes, just as you are. The Scriptures make it clear where Jesus got the authority to forgive sins. Were the apostles also God? Jesus authorized them to forgive sins: "He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." (John 20:22, 23) Just as the apostles were only men who had received divine authority, Jesus was also only a man who received divine authority: "I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of him who sent me." (John 5:30) "For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak." (John 12:49)
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time
But you claim that men HAVE seen God, again showing that you completely disregard the Scriptures to give preference to your own opinion and a pagan theory.
Note that Jesus is called the "image of the invisible God" in Colossians 1:15.
Have YOU noted that? How can he be both God AND God's image? He is either one or the other. Was Adam God? He also was made in God's image and likeness.
The prince would have the full authority of the king in this sense. Whatever that prince said, it had the full authority of his father the king. This picture is presented in Scripture. Jesus was sent from God having the full authority of God.
And here you show yourself completely blind, either inadvertently or deliberately. Your illustration, instead of proving that Jesus is God, shows that he is NOT God. It is God who SENT him. It was God who AUTHORIZED him. He did not have this authority ON HIS OWN, any more than the prophets of old and the apostles. They all RECEIVED their authority. Just as the prophets and apostles were not God, neither was Jesus.
Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
But, contrary to this plain statement of Scripture, YOU say God is THREE Lords!!!
I believe that there is ONE true God. But this God makes Himself manifest in the form of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Of course you BELIEVE it! But you haven't given a shred of reliable evidence for your belief.
Here we see that God addresses Himself as we.
How ridiculous can you be? Where in the Scriptures do we ever read about God talking to HIMSELF? Who HEARD him, so that we know what he said to himself?
He also says that God created man in HIS image, it makes no mention of angels in this entire passage.
It still doesn't matter to you what Jews like Moses and David believed FOR CENTURIES about this passage. YOU know better! Amazing!!! What else does God tell you in your dreams? Are you really sure it's God who is telling you these things?
Again, we are made in the image of God. No mention of angels anywhere.
So, then, we are all little TRINITIES!!! Is that what you're saying? God is a Trinity, and so are we, I take it, since we are in the Trinitarian image.
Isaiha 44:6 says: "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." The LORD King of Israel and the LORD of Hosts speak as one. They identify as the on and only God.
This is an indication that you just don't read anything I write. I clearly explained what Isaiah 44:6 and Zechariah 2:10, 11 mean according to the context in each case. Rather than accept the words of Isaiah and Zechariah, you again show your preference to lean upon your own understanding. The pagan Trinity must triumph, so it just doesn't matter what the Bible says.
The Messiah is identifed has having an everlasting past.
You simply have to know that you are deliberately lying here. Compare Micah 5:2 with 7:20 where in each case the same Hebrew idiom is used.
If any of you actually read all this, you must come to the conclusion that Jesus is God.
WRONG! I was sorry I read your post to the finish. I was left gasping by all your distorted conclusions. I believe, SwedishChef, that your mind is so deceived and your thinking so distorted by this grossly pagan concept of the Trinity that you will probably never see the truth about God and Christ until Judgment Day. But I will pray that God will open your eyes before then. If he does, it will be a miracle nearly as great as when a dead person returns to life.
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herk
Two Baptist illustrations of the Trinity: