The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

herk

Would Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah and John the Baptist have been able to understand these symbols of the Trinity? Would the apostles???
JosephMalik

I don't know what your reading, but it says that Jesus created everything. ,
SwedishChef ,
Well then exactly where does it say that? Nowhere! The word ALL does not mean everything. It simply refers back to the life under discussion. For example:
"Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)
But if it says everything somewhere that I missed then provide the text and lets settle this right now. Changing words from all to everything makes you a translator. So if you are qualified to alter the text where is the proof for your statement?
Joseph
SwedishChef

Herk, it seems to me like your running out of ideas, now you have to make jokes? Give me a break!
Also, I don't agree with any of the symbols of the Trinity. It is wrong to make them, and besides, they look ridiculous. I have never seen any of them before in my life. And no, none of those people you mentioned would have had any idea what those symbols were.
By the way, the Catholics were the ones to make all the statues and paintings supposedly representing the Trinity. (Nothing makes me more mad than to be called a Catholic.)
UnDisfellowshipped

JosephMalik said:
Even in Trinitarian theology the Son is another person and is not called LORD (YHWH) Failure to understand the text or your part does not make my comments wrong.
Joseph, you are correct that Trinitarian Theology teaches that the Son is a separate Person from the Father, however, Trinitarian Theology DOES teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all known as YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah/THE LORD/I AM).
This is based on Scriptures, which I will try to post soon.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 3 December 2002 0:57:32
UnDisfellowshipped

JosephMalik asked:
Did Jesus have all authority as the Word or was He still under His Fathers authority?
The Father, Son, and Spirit are in Perfect Unity, however, the Son is in willing subjection to the Father.
Even now, the Scriptures state that the Son was given all authority and power, and yet, it is the Father who decides which Apostles will be on the Right Hand of Jesus in Heaven.
Yes, the Word/Logos, before He came to Earth, had all of the authority that He has now, because the Word/Logos created everything (or, as you say, at least all of the people and governments).
Does the Creator not have authority over the creation?
Why is it necessary to give Jesus something or make him Lord and Christ if He is already God and the very same Being in fact?
Hmmmm, good question.
Perhaps because the Father could have decided to become the Christ and come to Earth Himself, but instead He appointed His Son as the Christ/Messiah.
Did Jesus raise himself from death or did God do that?
The Bible states that Jesus raised Himself from the dead:
John 2:19: Jesus answered them, "Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 2:20: The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this Temple in building, and will You raise it up in three days?"
John 2:21: But He spoke of the Temple of His Body.
John 2:22: When therefore He was raised from the dead, His Disciples remembered that He said this, and they believed the Scripture, and the Word which Jesus had said.
John 10:17: Therefore the Father loves Me, because I lay down My Life, that I may take it again.
John 10:18: No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down by Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. I received this Commandment from My Father."

The Bible states that God raised Jesus from the dead:
Acts 2:32: This Jesus God raised up, of which we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:23: Him, being delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by the hand of lawless men, crucified and killed;
Acts 2:24: whom God raised up, having freed Him from the agony of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
Acts 3:14: But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
Acts 3:15: and killed the Prince of Life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
So, I would say, based on those Verses, that the Father and the Son worked together in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ in His Human Body.
How is it that God needed to exalt Himself?
The Bible says that the Son lowered, humbled, and emptied Himself:
Philippians 2:5: Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
Philippians 2:6: who, existing in the Form of God, didn't consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Philippians 2:7: but emptied Himself, taking the Form of a Servant, being made in the likeness of men.
Philippians 2:8: And being found in Human Form, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the Cross.
Hebrews 2:7: You made Him a little lower than the angels; You crowned Him with glory and honor.
Hebrews 2:9: But we see Him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He should taste of death for everyone.
So, yes, Jesus, after He had emptied Himself and had become "a little lower than the angels" and came to Earth as 100% Human (He still had the Nature of God, yet He had emptied Himself) to die, then needed to be exalted to His previous authority and power.
Are not Angels and authorities and powers always made subject to God?
See my answer directly above.
The verses you show demonstrate clearly that this Word is not equal to the Father but has been appointed to serve in the capacities shown.
And yet, the Bible says that the Word deserves equal honor with the Father:
John 5:23: that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent Him.
meadow77

John 10:35-36 -God refers to those as heirs in eternal life as gods. In this same passage is where Christ A. states that he and the father are one. B. uses the Jewish laws against the Jews to prove that they were indeed attempting to stone him due to BLASPHEMY.
John 5: 18 Jews accuse Christ of blasphemy
John 5:23-Jesus again makes himself equal with God
Herk says that Christs death was over kingship or possibly because he forgave sins
The Jews were legalist-the point is not that they hated him, but what could they kill him for. Blasphemy to the Jews was making oneself equal with God. They state this everytime they refer to Christ and his blasphemy. "he has made himself equal with God"
Luke 23:40
I Chron 29: 20 and Daniel 2:46 are clearly examples of men honoring other men. No where does it state that the recipients of the honor were receiving worship. Men fell down and worshipped Jesus even when they wanted or needed nothing from him. Matthew 28: 9
Emmanuel is the proper name of many men today, and this in no way implies deity. This is an obvious fact that I am aware of. God gave the baby Jesus the name Emmanuel through his angel. Man did not give Jesus this name. Are we to understand that God the Father had no purpose in revealing this as the name of his son?
A man and his wife become one in spirit but this does not mean they become the same person. The word for one in Hebrew used in this passage is echod.
The term echod in Hebrew does not denote absolute unity but rather composite unity.
For another example we could use Numbers 13. Here echod is used when referring to a cluster of grapes. Only one stem of grapes is represented, but we know that there are many grapes on one cluster. Hence the use of echod. Where else do we see echod?
Deut 6:4 The Lord our God is one(echod) Lord. HHMMMMM
Scholars agree that John 1:1 cannot be effectively interpreted.
James Moffatt and Edgar Godspeed both render John 1:1 as "The word was divine." Neither of them argue against the trinity
The other most popular rendering is "the word was deity" Not changing the intention of John 1:1
Regardless of interpretation the fact that Jesus was the word is not disputable.
Your attempt to change Jesus from the word to words is weak.
Jesus was the word.
The word was made flesh
The word was and has been here from the beginning.
We see this even if we accept the JWs rendering of John 1:1, They dont even deny Jesus was the word, and whether he be God, or a god, he was here in the beginning.
Dr. Robertson states that eimi is translated "absolute"
This usage occurs four times in John
In Those passages the term is the same as the one used in the Septuagint.
This phrase is used only where the Jehovahs lordship is reiterated
John 8:24, 8:58, 13:19, 18:5
God asks us to reason with him. This is proof that we should not believe in something that is beyond our earthly comprehension.
Isaiah 55:8-9, Romans 11: 34-36
Certainly God knows that we have knowledge now, and reasoning powers by which to make better decisions. Is there any end to our reasoning skills?
God says that there is, See above verses
We are not to limit Gods existence to our human reasoning powers.
Are we given a reason for the creation of Satan, and why he was allowed to rebel?
There are many things about God and his creation for which no "reason" is given.
Do I know what Alpha and Omega mean?
First(protos)and last(eschatos)
Some have suggested that this means the first of creation, but that would be prototokas.
And even when Jesus is referred to as the firstborn or prototokas(which he is not in Rev) we know that this does not mean literally firstborn.
See Abraham and his firstborn son(prototokas)Isaac.
Was Isaac Abrahams first born son?
Jehovah gives his glory to no-one Isaiah 42:8, 48:11
Now read John 17:5
Does God contradict himself?
We know that Jesus emptied himself to become human like one of us. This was the only way he could die for humanities sin. While on earth he did not give up his deity, however we are told that he MADE himself a little lower than the angels, and placed himself under the authority of the Father while in human form. When Peter responds to Christ he is answering correctly, but so is Thomas in John 5:18. When Jesus says that the Father is greater than him, he is correct. While on earth in human form, made a slave to die for the sins of humanity, The father held a high position than he. Yet another example of a gross misinterpretation of what the trinity truly is.
When God says "Let us make man in our image" He was talking to his army. The angels are never said to have been created in Gods image, only man. "let us go down there and confound their language" Why does God need his angels to confuse peoples languages. God orders the angels to do things for him, he certainly would not need them to assist him in creation. We are told that God created the heavens and Earth by his word. We are told that He created man in his image. The only sense this passage makes is if he is speaking to someone who is already co-eternal with him.
It is odd that you would admit that the Holy Spirit is an extension of himself, but God.
Are you a completely separate person from your spirit?
Clearly the Spirit has a personality, you can deny this but the scriptures make it plain.
Acts 5:3-4 Acts 13:2-4 Acts 21:10-11
Edited by - meadow77 on 3 December 2002 2:20:58
UnDisfellowshipped

Meadow77 said:
We are not to limit Gods existence to our human reasoning powers.
Are we given a reason for the creation of Satan, and why he was allowed to rebel?
There are many things about God and his creation for which no "reason" is given.
Great points.
Also, can humans possibly understand how God has always existed and never ever was there a time when God did not exist?
If, as some people say, we shouldn't believe the Trinity because we humans cannot understand it, does that mean we should not believe that God is Eternal, just because we humans cannot understand it?
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 3 December 2002 3:10:47
UnDisfellowshipped

I just wanted to add an interesting Scripture.
Titus 2:13: as we wait for the blessed hope and the glorious appearance of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Titus 2:14: He gave Himself for us to set us free from every wrong and to cleanse us so that we could be His special people who are enthusiastic about good works.
The Father is never mentioned in the Bible as "Appearing" is He?
Also, Who did John the Baptist Prepare the Way For?
Isaiah 40:3: The voice of one who cries, Prepare you in the wilderness the way of Yahweh; make level in the desert a highway for our God.
Matthew 3:1: In those days, John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying,
Matthew 3:2: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"
Matthew 3:3: For this is he who was spoken of by Isaiah the Prophet, saying, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ready the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight."
Matthew 3:11: I indeed baptize you in water for repentance, but He who comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 3 December 2002 4:1:12
JosephMalik

Joseph, you are correct that Trinitarian Theology teaches that the Son is a separate Person from the Father, however, Trinitarian Theology DOES teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all known as YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah/THE LORD/I AM).
Undisfellowshipped,
Once again so what? The only way that Trinitarians can function is by insisting on all this. They cannot provide scripture to support it. All this has been covered and shown to be false on a verse by verse basis. There is no basis for such thinking in scripture. Sure anyone can say anything they want. But that does not make it so.
Joseph
JosephMalik

JosephMalik asked:
Did Jesus have all authority as the Word or was He still under His Fathers authority?
The Father, Son, and Spirit are in Perfect Unity, however, the Son is in willing subjection to the Father.
Undisfellowshipped,
You see what I am saying? You can not have it both ways. How are you going to prove a statement like this? Oneness does not prove equality and common Being. You have no case or proof just words that cannot stand up to investigation.
Why is it necessary to give Jesus something or make him Lord and Christ if He is already God and the very same Being in fact?
Undisfellowshipped said: Hmmmm, good question. Perhaps because the Father could have decided to become the Christ and come to Earth Himself, but instead He appointed His Son as the Christ/Messiah.
Please provide the texts. Perhaps not is just as good an answer and proof has already been shown that the Father and Christ are separate Beings. In fact the Son still has His human nature which can be shown by many texts and will use it when He comes again to live here and administer His kingdom.
Did Jesus raise himself from death or did God do that?
Undisfellowshipped said: The Bible states that Jesus raised Himself from the dead:
John 2:19: Jesus answered them, "Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 2:20: The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this Temple in building, and will You raise it up in three days?"
John 2:21: But He spoke of the Temple of His Body.
John 2:22: When therefore He was raised from the dead, His Disciples remembered that He said this, and they believed the Scripture, and the Word which Jesus had said.
John 10:17: Therefore the Father loves Me, because I lay down My Life, that I may take it again.
John 10:18: No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down by Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. I received this Commandment from My Father."

Sorry! You say that but the scriptures do not. All they say is that Jesus will raise His Body, not His life. A dead person can raise no one. Life must be restored first and who did that by your own admission?
Undisfellowshipped said: The Bible states that God raised Jesus from the dead:
Acts 2:32: This Jesus God raised up, of which we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:23: Him, being delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by the hand of lawless men, crucified and killed;
Acts 2:24: whom God raised up, having freed Him from the agony of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
Acts 3:14: But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
Acts 3:15: and killed the Prince of Life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
So, I would say, based on those Verses, that the Father and the Son worked together in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ in His Human Body.
Bingo! God raised Him from the dead. You missed the one where the Spirit raised Him up but no matter. This changes nothing. The Father was only concerned with the life of Jesus not His literal body which the resurrected Jesus could do all by Himself. In acquiring both natures, that of the Word and that of Man our Lord is now unique in this respect and can be addressed either way. This has also been demonstrated in this thread.
How is it that God needed to exalt Himself?
Undisfellowshipped said: So, yes, Jesus, after He had emptied Himself and had become "a little lower than the angels" and came to Earth as 100% Human (He still had the Nature of God, yet He had emptied Himself) to die, then needed to be exalted to His previous authority and power.
But the verses do not say that do they. No! In fact the verses you uses prove that this Son is not equal to the Father although this same Son did have a position far greater than man in the scheme of things. Where do they show only one Being is doing all this? Nowhere.
Are not Angels and authorities and powers always made subject to God?
Undisfellowshipped said: . . . And yet, the Bible says that the Word deserves equal honor with the Father:
John 5:23: that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent Him.
Once again proof for separate Beings is shown by this text not proof for one Being as you insist. How is it that honor shown the Father would not be accepted as honor shown the Son? Are we instructed to honor each specifically by name then to fulfill this text? Why then is the Holy Spirit no included here in this context if the Holy Spirit also makes up this one Being? You have no case. In fact you must deny the reality that such texts demonstrate point blank.
Joseph

The Trinity

Also, Who did John the Baptist Prepare the Way For?

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