by Pathofthorns 91 Replies latest jw friends
Realist,
Hmmmmm he WAS nuts. He made many bad decisions and refused to listen to his Generals (shit they even tried to kill him!!). He could have made amends and kept alot of the stuff he had.
Ballistic,
Yes the code breaking was very important. However, the codes didnt kill people, you still had to have the people and the equipment. The assasination of Admiral Yamamoto is a prime example of how code breaking helped us out :)
Can Islamic rule live (rule) in the same nation and allow for personal choice of religon not of Islam, giving it and it's people equal status. Yes or no?
Realist do you think that Islamic rule is a kind government to it's people? Do you think that it is fair to women? Do you think that they really understand what it is that they hate about the West? Do you think that they understand the West at all?
I have heard quite far assesments that bad Islamic Governments get US support and I agree. There are no good Isamic governments to support; Better to take them all out.IMO
Yes Realist Islamic Government are terrible. But there is more to it. They do terrible things and use the religous faith of their people to inflict their will. It seems to me that the distaste you have for the US is rooted in your understanding of history. You have attacked the Western way of things and I would like to know where you stand on these questions.
I find your perceptions of history frighting realist but, I know others are like you. I would like you understand your perceptions of the present situations as well.
"If" the USA props up these evil Governments then maybe they should fix those mistakes, yes?
I know that people are scared of what the future will be if the USA attacks Iraq. Most important who is next. There will be more I am sure. But we have two choices with groups that decide to use civilians as cannon fodder to push their ideology. Fight back, or cower in fear of when the next terror attack will come.
I hear all the arguments about who is the bigger inflictor of terror, the man with the bomb on the bus, or the B52 bomber flying at 50,000 feet raining death on people who have no ability to fight. To me 2 different things. And others do not agree nor will they ever, thus it is war.
ballistic don't forget the American codes that were not broken, who knows how many Allied lives were saved in the Pacific alone.
Realist this thread started with why the "world" hates the US today. So I am asking you about things that are at the heart of the issues of today. It seems that America is only summoned if the "world" is in trouble with all of your recounting the past.
Iwasyoungonce,
i have not attacked the western way of life. i have attacked uncontrolled capitalism. i have attacked american foreign politics and the hypocracy of the media propaganda. my views are influenced from current as well as past events. can you specify what is frightning about my view of the past and what you would like to understand about my opinion about the current situation?
"I know that people are scared of what the future will be if the USA attacks Iraq. Most important who is next. There will be more I am sure. But we have two choices with groups that decide to use civilians as cannon fodder to push their ideology. Fight back, or cower in fear of when the next terror attack will come."
2 choices, eh? Thats it? THIS is the typical attitude of America. America sports the "were bigger and badder" attitude "If we dont like you we will kill you." America knows nothing about..hmmmm.NEGOTIATING? Theyve got to fight their way into and out of EVERYTHING. Fight fight fight. Just because we can doesnt mean we have to. The Asians have the whole martial art culture, but most of it is for self-defense, not offensive. But Americans? Aggressiveness is the only way its all they know, thats why the murder rate is 10 times more than it is in Canada or Australia.
America is putting out a skillet fire without turning the burner off.
Whats so terribly impossible or wrong about trying to figure out how we can use our own resources in a more efficient way so as not to HAVE to depend on THEIR resources? Thats the whole problem USA is pushing their way into everyones territory and of COURSE they dont like that! And then when we start imposing sanctions that prevent them from getting proper healthcare and whatever else happens over there.THATS the problem. Bin Laden said so himself. They hate the way USA supports Israel and they hate the sanctions this country holds on those countries. If it werent for those things, a lot of these problems would be non-existent. Yeah, they don't like the western influence, but that alone would not be enough to provoke them to terrorize us.
The 30 BILLION dollars spent on the Airforces 20 new B2 bombers could have been spent on energy conservation and devising ways to depend LESS on oil and coal. Solar power, wind power.shootbuild more freakin electric cars why havent any American manufacturers done this yet? America should focus their energy on the source of the conflict and not simply brute force. Leave the Middle East ALONE let them handle their own problems. Focus on the problems in the Americas, including Canada and South America. Sooner or later were going to deplete natural resources, so why not PLAN AHEAD and work on alternate sources NOW? That way our kids, grandkids and great grandkids will have someplace to live years from now, because at this rate were going to get nuked and/or terrorized for years to come AND the climate is going to make living conditions here in the USA extremely dangerous and harmful to our health and well-being. That is a fact and none of these war-hungry people seem to understand that. Use your head and think and dont be so trigger-happy. Like Realist says, this all due to Americas foreign policies thats the source, the root of all of this conflict. Why isnt this great country addressing these policies? Because it would go contrary to their interests, which have been stated over and over and over again MONEY.
Bush is going to invade Iraq, kick out Sadaam and then what? Its not going to solve ANYTHING. The next ruler will be just as evil. There will still be more terrorists attacks and there will continue to be until the foreign policy dilemma is addressed. Or USA takes over the world somehow. Thats what seems to be in the works in my opinion. Our military is ramping up and making their presence known in every region of the world. Not to say that is necessarily a bad thing, I just know it wont be an easy road, and a lot of innocent lives will be lost in the process.
back2dafront you can not negotiate with terrorists it is as simple as that.
real- I think that the questions I asked were pretty clear. I went back and re-read your posts and I do see that you are right you never said "Western" but on 9/11 that was what was attacked. And it's happened in France and Kenya and all over the world. It is not just a US problem. Maybe when I look at the world situation and I do not see uncontrolled capitalism spewing all over America I see a lot of hard working good people. If anything our media points out everything that is wrong with America while intentionally ignoring what is right. Religious media in the news is like 1% so other countries and we do not see all the good around us. There are gaps in American understanding. One major problem is that some people do not want our freedom. They want to be controlled. When I see people like me who work their ass of to get ahead and do; We make it from nothing to a fantastic life. And we did it on our own back not the back of others. I have an opportunity to do that in America that exists in few other places in the world. I would be taxed into punishment for trying to get ahead. And even in this Country my taxes are massive. In many places you can not own land or even your business. You can not borrow money to start a business. So the life that so many Americans have is impossible for them. But it is capitalism and American principles of freedom for those who dare to go for it that makes it possible. It really does not matter what I say to you; All that some see is the blood of the people that die half way around the world often at the hands of their own government and somehow its our fault. Ignore it and we don't care get involved and we are Imperialists. Whatever. Some people will never get it. Sometimes I wonder if I and the USA really does stand alone. At least I am here. I get it. If I stand alone so be it.
iwasyoung,
i didn't say capitalism is bad...i said uncontrolled capitalism. right now you are healthy and you obviously have a good job...if you belong to this category than yes the US is a good place to be in many respects (well maybe not climate in most parts, and not security but otherwise)...but what happenes if you get sick? you loose your job you loose your insurance with it and thyn the game is over. besides what happens to the millions of people who are just not as strong as you are (physical and mental maybe)...they are left behind in this society. so with all due respect i have to say that the european way of having controlled capitalism where sick, old, weak people are not just left to themselfs is the better way to go.
PS: by the way...the world (maybe with the exception of some arabs) doesn't hate the US and certainly doesn't hate the average american citizen!!! what the world is getting tired of is that the US government behalves the way it does....arrogant and hypocritical.
Edited by - realist on 10 December 2002 10:17:8
REALIST,
Get Realistic will ya, there will ALWAYS be a World Power, If it's not us someone else will step up to the plate, China perhaps. Would the world be better off with China being the major world power? We are involved in the Middle East to protect our interests and THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. If we don't watch out for our interests NO ONE ELSE WILL.
We've made live BETTER for the vast majority of the peoples we've encountered. The Germans are better off now than before we defeated them. The Saudis as a whole live much better, Iran was more properous and the people happier under the Shaw than under Khomieni, etc etc ad nauseum.
Radical Muslims hate us SOLELY for the fact that we are not muslim, and were we muslim they would hate us because we weren't THEIR FLAVOR of Islam. You need look no further than the US to see examples of this in the Muslim community. On a global scale, in Algeria, you see Radical Muslims killing moderate ones because the moderate Muslims aren't radical. The HATE would still be there and wouldn't go away if we withdrew from global politics, they would still HATE and our interests abroad would be injured, and the US would soon be no more properous than Mexico.
oh please...
europe is doing well without getting involved with military power all over the world. the arabs would do buisness with the US anyways...ok they might dictate the oil price partially but in my opinion thats not a justification for military interventions.
do you really think the US would be overrun if they don't interven in the whole world? i think the US industry is strong enough to do without that.
about the US bringing a better life to most people...i have to strongly disagree with that. for whom did the US make life better? indians? germans? vietnamese? iraqis? south americans? cubans? whom?
Of course you have to disagree Realist, you would rather see the citizens of the US live like those in Mexico or some other poor nation.
I know for a fact the US would be over run if we didn't intervene. The Radical Muslims are already trying it.
The Europeans are doing well without getting involved militarily because the US does it for them. The Europeans didn't even have to gonads to put a stop to the slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia, it was the US that did that. The same is true of Kosovo. And there is the example of people who are better off for US intervention. The vietmanese would have been had we the guts to stick out that war. AND HAD WE FOUGHT IT BETTER. The German people are by far better off because of our intervention. Had we removed Hussein the first time around they too would have been better off, as they will when we go in and take out Saddam.
Facts are facts, the standard of living goes UP not Down where the US becomes involved.
