by Reborn2002 67 Replies latest jw friends
This country is not going down the toilet. If it were so bad, why is this is the number one destination for so many people from different countries?
To make a buck. For MONEY not for personal liberties. Anybody who says that America has the most freedom has never traveled out of the United States.
This country is going down hill and people who sit by and watch it happen, and support what is happening, deserve what they get.
Robyn
Edited by - robdar on 19 December 2002 17:21:14
Many more years ago than I care to mention when I was studying the russian language and the soviet union was still in tact many soviet russians who visited the USA would tell me that we had more of a police state than they- what more can I say but to agree with Robyn...
the soviet union was still in tact many soviet russians who visited the USA would tell me that we had more of a police state than they
I mean no disrespect but this has to be one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. One small example, what would happen if I were to go to the Kremlin and organize a protest? I believe I'd soon find myself in the loving company of the KGB. The very fact that people are able to ptotest what's being done to these Arabs in evidence against your point.
Don't you believe that the next terrorist attack will probably be worse then the last? Again, I ask to those who are complaining, how would YOU suggest we uncover these terrorist cells before the next attack? Do you want to be anywhere near a big city when they set off a nuke? Do you want to live down wind of a chemical plant when they explode it? Heck, they don't even need to sneak people in. Here in Chicago on the local news they did a special on local Islamic schools and the hate they preach against America. Text books for kids showing how evil America is. Sheesh, what's the deal with that? Freedom of speech allows this (as well it should) but is there anything wrong with keeping a close eye on these people? Regarding this and the "racist" card that many are playing, keep in mind that the government clamp down hard on militia groups (which were/are typically white males) after the Oklahoma bombing took place. These militia groups are no longer a threat to US security as they once were.
One more point while I'm on my soapbox. While every Tom, Dick and Harry complains about the government, how many bother to vote? Everyone's bitching about this or that but 70% of Americans can't even get off of their lazy asses and vote.
I think perhaps some people misconstrue my statements here.
I am not saying that people who have blatantly violated the law should not be punished.
I am not saying that people who are here illegally have a right to remain.
If justice is to be carried out, let it be done evenly, against ALL who are violating US immigration law.
I AM saying that this course of action specifically targeting Muslims and people of Arabic descent is blatant racism and a problem which may in fact backfire and rile more supporters to the jihad/intifadeh cause.
If your going to round up illegal immigrants for massive detainment as was the case here, you better damn well do it to the Irish, African, Cuban, Haitian, etc. who are also here illegally and violating the exact same set of laws.
Or is this action of specifically targeted a race or group of people now deemed acceptable under the pretense of the "war on terror"?
To have mass reports in the media of this happening solely to muslims with the ongoing "war on terror" is a huge problem.Perhaps you are comfortable with a specific race of people being targeted. Honest, hard-working Arab-Americans are fighting a stigma and label of being involved somehow in jihad simply because they are Arab. I liken their ongoing struggle to that which affected African-Americans during the civil rights movement. Because of a set of beliefs or the color of their skin, they are having to fight to be treated fairly or equal.
You do not see a massive detainment of thousands of Irish or German immigrants here illegally. You say it is acceptable to target Muslims because of the 9/11 hijackers. Conveniently many do not endorse the massive detainment of white Americans after Tim McVeigh and John Walker Lindh perpetrated terrorist attacks against their own country (they were US citizens) Some here (notably the conservative-Republican caucasian bloc) may not like it, but you cannot refute this fact.
Somehow I doubt you would be as comfortable if it was you.
Edited by - Reborn2002 on 19 December 2002 17:45:25
At the risk of starting a flame war along party lines, I will respond:
Everyone's bitching about this or that but 70% of Americans can't even get off of their lazy asses and vote.
What does it matter? The will of the people is not heard. The candidate with 500,000+ more votes was denied office.
The state containing the voting controversy just happened to be the location where his brother was Governor.
Or how about disenfranchised black voters turned away? Or ballots not counted?
The Supreme Court Justices who voted in favor of Dumb Ass Dubya just happened to be appointed by Daddy or other Republicans. So much for justice being blind.
But that is another topic...
Roy,
You make good points, I do see your side of this debate. However this quote I do have a problem with:
Everyone's bitching about this or that but 70% of Americans can't even get off of their lazy asses and vote.
Many Americans voted in the last presidential election. The US supreme court interfered with state's rights and basically said that many of those votes don't count. Why vote if your vote will be disregarded?
I never thought that I would live long enough to see the sort of shenanigans that I have seen the past couple of years in my beloved country.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I guess it's time to give the Devil his due.
Robyn
Edited by - robdar on 19 December 2002 17:52:47
EVERY commercial airliner highjacked in the last 20 years was highjacked by an Arab, a Muslim extremist. Make a note of that.
What does it take to convince you, Reborn? A well-placed 2 X 4 against the skull? Hint: These people are not our friends. Carefully read Yeru's post. All the information you need is there and I don't like being redundant, especially when you're not being thoughtful.
Try again.
Francois stumbled:
EVERY commercial airliner highjacked in the last 20 years was highjacked by an Arab, a Muslim extremist. Make a note of that.
Francois, it took me 20 seconds to prove you wrong (see news article below), as:
1. An Indian Airlines Airbus A-300 manifestly is a "commercial airliner".
2. An Indian Hindu, extremist or otherwise, manifestly does not fall within the remit of your "an Arab, a Muslim extremist."
3. The incident occurred 9 years ago, which is manifestly "in the last 20 years".
And I am sure there have been various other non-Muslim plane hijackers in the period. By overstating your case, you leave yourself wide open to charges both of stupidity and bigotry. I don't believe you are stupid or bigoted. I just believe you are rash and do not think things through. I'm sure you haven't forgotten our last encounter.
When writing about these charged topics, you should be more careful with with your assertions.
"an Arab, a Muslim" is also confused. I suggest you mean "an Arab or a Muslim". While it is true that most Arabs are Muslims, few Muslims are Arabs. Arabs are an ethnic group: a race or races. A Muslim is the member of a religion. Be careful with your broad brush and your racial/religious defamation.
What does it take to convince you, Reborn? A well-placed 2 X 4 against the skull? Hint: These people are not our friends. Carefully read
Why this quick slip into fantasies of physical violence, Francois?
Do you see unpleasant enemies and potential enemies all around you?
You may be right. If so, ask yourself "why is it so". And if they concern you, why do things that will make it likely that their numbers will increase?
I suggest that YOU carefully read first.
Here's "one" for you, in turn:
Name some non-Christian "CRUSADERS" (within the classic sense of the word).
This "MUSLIM-BASHING" is just as IDIOTIC as the previous "JEW-BASHING". Learn some history, and learn how many people, in the thrall of a religion hundreds of years younger than Christianity, behave much as many "Christians" did hundreds of years ago.
They're all as bad as each other.
And I have oodles of data to support my contentions.
Those wishing to make fools of themselves, pray proceed. Pussy just might play.
Your sort of inflammatory rhetoric, coupled with "FACT" that I have just proven is anything BUT factual, simply makes YOU the sort of person whose writings make recruiting terrorists so much easier.
Think about it. I am not being hostile. Correcting foolish and misguided assertions is an act of kindness and not one of hostility. I view PROPAGANDA such as you (and others) spill as being the fodder for terrorists. If you want to encourage more terrorism, proceed with your folly. Hate breeds hate. Intolerance breeds intolerance. Not too hard to understand, even without "your" 4x2.
Next time, THINK first. THEN research. THEN think again. THEN - just perhaps - post. Thanks for playing.
--
Focus
(Anti-Idiocy Class)
PS: By the way, I wouldn't be too hasty to come up with the lame excuse "I meant an AMERICAN airline's plane / a hijacking involving American victims". There are quite a number of big pitfalls to be encountered along that route of argumentation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Google Groups
TRUCK DRIVER HIJACKS A JETLINER
By DEEPAK SHARMA
Associated Press Writer March 27, 1993
AMRITSAR, India (AP) -- A truck driver protesting sectarian violence
commandeered a jetliner Saturday in an eight-hour saga that ended with
dozens of passengers rushing for the hijacker's autograph after he
surrendered.
"It was like he was some kind of a hero," said Judy Silver of Short
Hills, N.J., and a student at Washington University in St. Louis. "He bowed
to the people while they were clapping.
"Some people were plain disgusted by that behavior and we were just
confused," she said.
In a rambling statement over the aircraft's radio, he said he seized the
Airbus A300 to protest political corruption and Hindu-Muslim violence that
has killed about 2,000 Indians since December. The hijacker was wearing a
shirt scrawled with cartoons of political leaders and a slogan calling
for communal harmony when he ordered the pilot to divert the plane to Pakistan
and then Bangladesh.
He pretended he had strapped explosives to his body, but was unarmed.
The 192 passengers and 13 crew were released unharmed eight hours after the
man, identified as 37-year-old Hari Singh, a Hindu, surrendered. There were
no injuries.
When Singh announced his decision to give himself up, many passengers
rushed to get his autograph, said Erica Binger, a student at Pepperdine
University in Malibu, Calif., and native of Paulson, Mont.
Binger and Silver were among six Americans on the plane, which was
flying from New Delhi to the southern cities of Hyderabad and Madras.
Singh first told the pilot to fly to Lahore, Pakistan, but Pakistani
authorities refused to let it land and blocked the runway with buses.
The hijacker then ordered the pilot to fly to Bangladesh capital, Dhaka,
but was persuaded to let the jetliner land in the northwestern city of
Amritsar to refuel.
The aircraft was parked in a corner of the airstrip and was ringed by
commandos who had sealed the airport.
Government officials negotiated with the hijacker for hours. When he
surrendered, Singh followed the plane's captain down a staircase and had
begun to make a statement to journalists when police whisked him away.
"I have not hijacked this plane for bloodshed, but I want to change the
thinking of the people because my aim is only love, peace and to maintain
communal harmony in India," he said before police removed him.
Passengers said the hijacker was calm and shook hands with many of them.
"We are greatly relieved it is over even though there didn't appear to
be any danger, " said Rowan Harty, an aerospace engineer from Blackpool,
England. Jennifer McArthur, a 20-year-old native of Midway City, Calif.,
said she broke down when she learned of the hijacking.
"I am not even allowed to drink and I have already been hijacked," said
Jennifer McArthur, a sophomore at the University of Southern California in
Los Angeles.
In his statement, Singh blamed the nation's largest opposition group,
the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, for the destruction of a
Muslim shrine that set off nationwide riots.
The hijacking occurred as the governing Congress Party began a weekend
meeting where Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao faced strong criticism from
party dissidents. Many have said he has poorly handled the communal
violence.
The hijacking, the 10th of an Indian Airlines jetliner since 1971, also
comes as tourism is falling dramatically because of widespread violence.
Edited by - Focus on 19 December 2002 21:24:53
I'm leaning toward's Focus', Jason's and Joanna's point of view.
Case in point: The Washington snipers turned out to be BLACK AMERICANS which shook everybody up.
Shall we now begin detaining blacks just because two of them are terrorists??? The percentage of Arab Muslims who are terrorists vs. those who are peace loving people doesn't even BEGIN to make sense.
And hey, why stop with deporting the Arabs? Blacks arrived here illegally too! And dammit, their descendants STAYED!
While you are thinking of kicking out the Sand Niggers, make sure to kick out the WASP assholes who are making millions off of selling them weapons of mass destruction.
Lisa
Every American is Equal, Class
The 2 snipers although black were converted muslims.
And Francois, I can't remember the name, but wasn't there an American (white) man that hijacked not 1 but 2 planes after commiting bank robberies?
Anyways, regardless, I think the government is really between a rock & a hard place. If they don't go to these extremes & something happens again, they'll be ridiculed for not having "done enough" in rounding of "suspected" terrorists. Look at how much heat they're taking for 9/11 as it is. Then, when they do this type of thing, it makes alot of Americans feel uneasy as they can slowly see the government stripping us of our "freedoms". Wasn't it just a few weeks ago Bush was wanting to "revise" the Miranda rights to allow for questioning of suspects before their rights are known?
I don't like these people being "rounded" up anymore than any of the "nay-sayers" here. It is wrong when done on such a "biased" way. But, given the constraints of "personnel", and the sham of an immigration department as it stands, I don't see how they can realistically do anything else.
And for those that keep bringing up "Timothy McVeigh" - I'm sure since that terrorist act the government has been keeping a MUCH closer eye on the type of groups that caused him to exist in the first place. We don't hear about it in the paper, but if you read any of their controversial websites they feel like they're getting screwed all over the place!
I think as Americans we should be questioning ALOT of the basic rights that this particular government in their "war" stage are slowly eroding. This is just another example. And, the fact that these people were "Muslims" is what made it hit the news. I don't think this necessarily means it ISNT happening to other "illegal" immigrants.
Rhonda (of the torn between our rights & our safety class)
