History doomed to repeat itself...

by Reborn2002 67 Replies latest jw friends

Focus

LDH: Yes, you do understand.
Here in this very thread we see manifested precisely the attitudes that make recruiting terrorists - say, ones who happen to be Anti-American, easier.
1. One or more FALSE assertions are made defaming whole racial/religious groups.
2. Based on the assertions seen to be false, calls for extreme measures are made against such groups: these are to be vindicated by the said assertion(s).
Think I am a high-falutin' moralist?
Nope.
I am practical, unlike the Uzi-bearers.
Let us just pretend that I, Focus, was a recruiter for Anti-American terrorists. I assure you that I am not.
Now, comments like those spouted by Francois (he is but an example; he is far from alone) would be MY BEST ALLIES. I'll show you why.
Focus (enters room filled with naive Muslim young men): Read what the Americans say about you.
/They read/
Focus: Now, see the LIE(S) they tell about us! (shows them, carefully using irrefutable American-only sources, that the assertions made about say Arabs/Muslim hijackers is FALSE; plenty more to show them, relating to nefarious acts committed abroad by the CIA etc.)
Focus: Now, after their propaganda of LIES, see what insulting things they write! (reads from Francois): "These people are not our friends." (then recites various unfair actions taken against Muslim groups)
Young men: (scream) JIHAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!
Get the picture, thickos? Once you get to the stage of using language like "these people" as applied to whole racial/religious groups, you are as bad as they are. And their leaders WILL USE YOUR OWN WORDS TO RECRUIT MORE TERRORISTS.
And leaving aside the moral aspects: you can take as many measures as you want, but if there are enough young men who hate you enough to kill your people irrespective of whether they kill themselves too, kill your people they will.
The key is not "an eye for an eye". That leads to a world filled with blind people.
The key is determining the cause of terrorism, and fixing it as best as possible.
TERRORISM is bred by INJUSTICE, IGNORANCE and INTOLERANCE. We've seen all of those three manifested right here. So why vilify them for what one is guiulty of oneself, eh?
"They started it" is both morally irrelevant and factually incorrect.
roybatty said:
Here in Chicago on the local news they did a special on local Islamic schools and the hate they preach
Reprehensible indeed.
And here on jw.com Focus does a special on the hate preached, often unintentionally (but the result is the same), in threads.
Which preaching is just as reprehensible.
The identifying characteristic of a bigot or someone enmeshed in a cult is an inability to see analogies. I am sure you can see the analogy, roybatty.
Now, my suggestions lead to a world where our children's children have more of a chance.
The other fantasizing will as sure as eggs is eggs lead to a world where recruiting new terrorists gets easier and easier. With consequences that are obvious. Nukes in major cities.
It is the ones who spout "These people are not our friends." who - without realizing it, I know - enable and make easier the task of recruiting suicide bombers and the like.
T H I N K .
Put your violent fantasies aside. They don't impress. They simply RECRUIT.
Solve the problem. Don't attack the symptoms: in this case, that will only exacerbate the problem.
Defend carefully against terrorism for sure, but in a MANIFESTLY non-discriminatory way.
No bleeding heart here. But someone hardened to dealing with practicalities. The violence-mongers are the ones who themselves are bleeding idealists, for their ideals way will just lead to a mass grave, where Muslims and Christians and so on will rot together.
And Dubya making an idiotic speech that refers to a "crusade" - what do you think of that? Deliberate provocation by the speech-writer(s)? Sheeeeesh.
Sorry I used your words as an example, Francois. I could have chosen those of many others from this thread.
--
Focus
(Wants to make it much harder, not much easier, to persuade people to kill others... Class)
Edited by - Focus on 19 December 2002 22:13:37
julien

Case in point: The Washington snipers turned out to be BLACK AMERICANS which shook everybody up.
Shall we now begin detaining blacks just because two of them are terrorists??? The percentage of Arab Muslims who are terrorists vs. those who are peace loving people doesn't even BEGIN to make sense.
This isn't exactly the same. The snipers acted independently; they are not part any organization which represents a continuing threat. The 9/11 terrorists were part of a global organization whose members are all pretty much all muslim and arab. That organization exists and is still a threat. The people rounded up were not random Muslims. They had commited violations.
Anyway it's like when your doctor has to remove a cancer tumor. Generally a lot of healthy flesh gets cut out too, just to make sure you get all the cancer cells. Unfortunately that is the price you have to pay if you want to continue to live. And the US government probably feels the same way about terrorists. Could Al Qaeda destroy America? How many airline bankruptcies can we take? How much lower can the economy go? Can you afford to pay mortgage when you have no job? What about if there is another attack and mob mentality develops, and people start lynching anyone with an arab accent? Would that be worse or better than what just happened?
We pay this price now to hopefully prevent having to pay a higher price later.
LDH

Julien states:
Generally a lot of healthy flesh gets cut out too, just to make sure you get all the cancer cells. Unfortunately that is the price you have to pay if you want to continue to live.
I guess that means it would be okay if any of those people were your relatives, eh Julien? What if your family were the healthy flesh that was cut out? Would it be okay then?
What if terrorists rented an apartment here in Fresno? Should we bomb the whole apartment complex just to be safe???
HELLO people this is what Jehoobers Witlisses preach about Jehovah. Just because SOME human beings are vile despicable people, He's going to Fucking blow the world and all of it's inhabitants to bits (except for his Chosen Ones (tm) yah right).
Does this make sense to you?
When a student in your class got caught committing some minor infraction, and the whole class was sentenced to detention, did this seem right to you?
Then HOW can I ask, does it seem acceptable to you to paint ALL Arabs (which some have confused with ALL Muslims) with the same brush?!?!?
Next it will be the Koreans.
Then the Indians.
Our ignorance as Americans (no matter what religion) has CERTAINLY contributed to the problem.
Knee-jerk reactions seldom do good.
Lisa
SixofNine

This is troubling indeed. And yes, what a great terrorist recruitment tactic. Piss off people who are familiar with living and working in and amongst Americans. Good thinking, Georgie.
Focus

Rhonda wrote:
Rhonda (of the torn between our rights & our safety class)
Please, don't be torn, brave one. When I look at your thumbnail GIF, I keep expecting...
Now, "my" way reduces, to the recruiters of suicide-attackers, their flow of oxygen.
If one may be seen to "hate" them, one can be sure they will hate one back.
Even if one is "right".
The suicide-killer is increasingly sophisticated. He may be young and naive, but in order to accomplish what is required of him, he needs to be reasonably intelligent. He may have to fly planes. Heaven help us, he may have to learn to tweak and set off medium-sized nuclear devices (not just suitcase nukes). Probably more than just flicking a switch as in the 007 movies.
Showing that "our" side is not filled with racist, violent, unfair, ignorant-of-history and discriminatory bigots makes it harder, in this internet age, for the recruiter on the other side to demonstrate that "we" are "The Great Satan" (or whatever) to his necessarily non-stupid target audience.
It is no guarantee, and it is NOT a replacement (just a supplement) for thorough but JUST defensive* measures, but it is a hell of a lot better than giving the other side the moral high ground. You can be very sure that there are advocates on the other side (and on this one) every bit as persuasive as I, and then some, and who will have far fewer qualms than I about sticking to the truth (let alone the Whole truth). It is possible to lie by omission.
Thinking that the recruiters on the other side are dumb illiterate {racial slur deleted prior to insertion} is .... dumb. Very, very, very dumb.
They are as dumb as I am.
These recruiters "PROVE" how evil America and its allies are, as well or better than the WTS proves that it has "the truth" to JWs. Not all JWs are willing to die specifically for their beliefs (thank heavens) - see the stats re changing of minds re transfusions, and even of Bible Students who decided that "Heil"ing Hitler was better than being sent to a concentration camp.
How do I know? The September 11 recruiters scored 20/20 (or 19/20, just possibly).
I want to make THEIR jobs as HARD AS POSSIBLE.
They are the REAL ENEMY. They brainwash others into murdering.
Catching them is not easy. Where's bin Laden, eh?
So let's make their work as hard as possible. Their main work. Propaganda and recruiting. And not simply play into their hands with immature and semi-racist fantasies....
Make it harder to recruit people who are willing to die (the ultimate sacrifice: only a tiny minority of intelligent people will EVER opt for this) in order to murder others. I sincerely believe "my" way (of course not "mine", but I am the one specifically advocating it HERE) is the best one to ensure this happens and there is a world left for our descendants. Gradually, the spread of knowledge will lessen the dangers to all. And hopefully, a reduction in injustice will occur.
Of the three "I"s I listed in my last post, "Ignorance" is the biggest factor. But at present, even the knowledgeable have plenty of reason to point their finger at the U.S. Heard of pollution, ecology, the global environment?
Food for thought. Don't blame others for hating us for what our "democratically" elected government and accountable national and international institutions perpetrate in our name.
"Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battle field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate - we cannot consecrate - we cannot hallow - this ground. The brave men living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it will never forget what they did here. It is for this the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us - that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion - that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain - that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom - and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
It is "of", "by" and "for" us, right?
Must have been someone like Focus who was dumb enough to say that, right?
The international actions, much of it covert, of recent governments of the United States are a betrayal to the dead of Gettysburg, an affront to human rights and dignity, a disgrace, and plain folly - and a surefire way of ensuring that the recruiters of suicide-bombers will not run short of sufficiently intelligent recruits.
Ignorance on the part of the opposers, sure; but also some knowledgeable ones opposed, who can see immense ignorance within America: the world's first major power to whose people it came as a genuine shock that the despicable actions of the governments that are ostensibly of/by/for them has caused them to be so hated in so many places (let alone accurate perceptions as to the causes of such hatred: "jealousy" is but a minor factor)
Tragic. What wasted opportunities for a better world.
--
Focus
(Practical Survival Skills Class)
* Bombing innocent people, in this modern day when pinpoint attacks are possible, and where satellites have resolutions down to the inch, and so on, is NOT - in general - a "defensive measure". Mistakes will happen. But when five or ten happen in a short period they can no longer be termed "mistakes" and will surely serve to recruit more hate-fuelled enemies.
Edited by - Focus on 19 December 2002 23:6:32
pettygrudger

I couldn't agree more with you Focus that it is our "foreign" and domestic policies that gets us into so much hot water. I don't think that many were interested enough in our "political" process or how we interact with the world in general to understand the choices that we have the responsibility to understand and make living in a "free" society. I believe a majority of Americans are getting a crash coure in foreign policy. Up until 9/11, i doubt very few could have cared less about it as long as they could drive their SUV's, go to their secure jobs & live the "high" life that fewer than 8% of this earth live.
But I would disagree that "enlightening" and knowledge is going to do the trick, at least in the near future. Perhaps as a couple of generations pass, perhaps. But, we've had a couple of generations & a few wars from which to become "enlightened", and all that is happening is things like 9/11, the threat of biological & chemical agents, "suitcase" nucelor weapons & suicide bombers. Its not getting better, its getting worse.
I will say again, I'm sure that this article made front headlines because of the fact that they were muslims. Had it been any other ethnic group, it might have made page 28 in the lower left corner & 3 sentences. No one would have even noticed or cared. Most would have been happy to see us taking "steps" towards the illegal alien situation existing in our country. Does it make this situation right? It depends on how our immigration department usually handles these types of things. I mean, who here knows whether or not this happens, say in Miami from time to time & never makes the headline news?
On a final note, I'm not sure who was "painting" all Arabs with the same brush. There are millions of Arabs living and working amongst us. I'm sure most of us have friends who are of middle eastern descent. I personally wouldn't want to see any of them harassed or "scrutinized" because of their ethnic background. As the article stated, the ones rounded up were either illegally living in this country, expired visa's or had warrants out for them. While it obviously is "ethnically" motivated, I don't know enough about our immigration department to know whether or not "sweeps" of this nature do occur in other places with other ethnic groups. I just know they have their hands full at the moment trying to figure out who is & who isn't in this country by itself, not including trying to figure out which ones are "terrorist cells" awaiting orders from their leaders.
Focus

pettygrudger wrote:
I couldn't agree more with you Focus that it is our "foreign" and domestic policies that gets us into so much hot water. I don't think that many were interested enough in our "political" process or how we interact with the world in general to understand the choices that we have the responsibility to understand and make living in a "free" society. I believe a majority of Americans are getting a crash coure in foreign policy. Up until 9/11, i doubt very few could have cared less about it as long as they could drive their SUV's, go to their secure jobs & live the "high" life that fewer than 8% of this earth live.
Yes. The ignorance, extreme naivete as to the world and, well, extraordinarily poor education given their privileged position, of many of our brethren - as demonstrated with alarming regularity on this board and in a hundred thousand other places on the internet - has brought about a position where it seems that half the planet hates Americans.
But I would disagree that "enlightening" and knowledge is going to do the trick, at least in the near future.
I am afraid I think that you have got lost.
I am not talking about enlightening the "foreigners".
I am talking about enlightening Americans.
It is their hate language, and sometimes hateful conduct, that enables smart suicide-bombers to be more easily recruited.
Let me explain.
A suicide-bomber, or a team of them, needs to stay "on mission" right till the very end. The minute they begin to waver, they may change their mind. They are not "cowards" in the common sense of the word. They are overcoming their fear for what they, completely wrongly, think is their "best way" to make a better world.
The endless spew of ignorance, bigotry and hatred that emanates from a significant minority within the U.S. makes it much more likely they will not be deflected.
An example. Go to news:alt.revisionism . Over 95% of hate material quite evidently emanates from the U.S. Leaving aside France and Germany, who have specific laws banning certain types of hate speech, one would have expected the rest of the world to contribute 50%, not 5%. This expectation takes into account the very widespread use of English and the Internet in the U.S. The hatred of other groups, inside and outside the country, is very strong. WHY?
I'm not talking about educating "Arabs". I'm talking about educating "Americans".
On a final note, I'm not sure who was "painting" all Arabs with the same brush.
You are not sure?
Here. My highlighting.
Francois wrote on: Dec 19, 2002 19:48
EVERY commercial airliner highjacked in the last 20 years was highjacked by an Arab, a Muslim extremist. Make a note of that.
What does it take to convince you, Reborn? A well-placed 2 X 4 against the skull? Hint: These people are not our friends. Carefully read Yeru's post. All the information you need is there and I don't like being redundant, especially when you're not being thoughtful.
Try again.
In the context of the thread, it is obvious the sane reader is going to conclude that one, whatever one's intentions, is referring to "Arabs/Muslims" - rather than just the terrorists among them, as it is utterly redundant to say that "Terrorists who attack America are not friends of America." Just as likely that Jesus stressed he was speaking "today" at Luke 23:43.
//Snipped the rest, as I agree that the article he quoted does not actually prove what many saw as being Jason's contention. By the time I saw the thread, others had already taken Jason up on this, so I did not. I am addressing the quality of text in the reactions of others, and how such ill-thought and inflammatory material simply assists terrorist-recruiters.//
"History doomed to repeat itself..." is correct, until the cycle is broken. My way breaks the cycle. Grievously wronging innocent people perpetuates the cycle. Simple, if one puts one's mind to it.
--
Focus
(Passive nothing - ACTIVE GRAY Class)
pettygrudger

am not talking about enlightening the "foreigners".
I am talking about enlightening Americans.

So was I Focus. With all the wealth of knowledge available to us, with all the examples in recent history, with all the knowledge of recent history - we still seemed to have not learned a thing.
Focus

This is an example of how a somewhat flawed (though well-meaning) response may be twisted. No implication of bad faith, just a little bit of bad judgment, by julien. Focus is now in recruitment mode.
julien wrote:
Anyway it's like when your doctor has to remove a cancer tumor. Generally a lot of healthy flesh gets cut out too, just to make sure you get all the cancer cells.
Note it was their flesh, not your flesh, that you were being so generous with.
Thanks for that. You just may have contributed to the recruitment of another terrorist, should your material be used by a recuiter, by your choice of analogy.
Unfortunately that is the price you have to pay
Correction: That is the price THEY have to pay, not you.
How many airline bankruptcies can we take? How much lower can the economy go? Can you afford to pay mortgage when you have no job?
The other side's recruiters ensure the recruits see loads of kids orphaned, people killed and maimed through what is arguably U.S. sponsored terrorism (or direct bombing). Or perhaps starving people, or people who have not had a square meal for ages, arguably thanks to U.S. sponsored policies, U.S. supported dictatorships, U.S. arms sales, etc.
Puts your little worries about airline stock and other concerns and problems in perspective, right?
Or do "they" count less than "you"?
I think you are up to TWO terrorists recruited now thanks to that one.
We pay this price now to hopefully prevent having to pay a higher price later.
No. You do not pay the price. THEY pay the price.
Let us double that to four terrorist recruits, eh?
And it ENSURES that you will pay a higher price later.
/propaganda mode: off/
I am anti-Propaganda, but Pro-Knowledge-of-Propaganda. Thanks, julien.
.
pettygrudger wrote:
I am talking about enlightening Americans.
So was I Focus. With all the wealth of knowledge available to us, with all the examples in recent history, with all the knowledge available to us, with all the examples in recent history, with all the knowledge of recent history - we still seemed to have not learned a thing.
I thought you might have been.
Your reply was both expected and wasfully understood, as I will demonstrate immediately.
At least now many have been "conclusively" showed by "enlightened Americans" that the Holocaust never really happened, right? By this I mean, many were shown that there was no policy of extermination of Jews by the Nazis, and while a much, much smaller number may have died through starvation and disease, most bad things happened to them at the hands of fellow Jews and not because of the Nazis. There were no organized deaths by gassing. Jewish survivors must be liars and thieves trying to steal compensation money... defaming the dead is not possible. Somehow while denying everything that makes the Holocaust the Holocaust, the makers can claim not to be Holocaust Deniers, right? And it is OK to start all variety of apparently vile, hateful calumnies with "The Jews are .." or "The Jews have .." or "The Jews did" "The Jews will .." and so on, but as they are all true one would not be a racist, a bigot or anti-Semitic. And despite the theories being expounded (down to details on how the Jews want to take over the world with Communism, how they are responsible for specific calamities and behind specific conspiracies, etc.) being EXACTLY the same as the ones which were set out in 1924 in "Mein Kampf" (author: one Adolf Hitler), the cornerstone work of the Nazi theology, ideology and practice, the proponents of the same today are of course not neo-Nazis!
Indeed, "with God, all things are possible". Or the cynical will say, deniers even deny that they deny.
Then, when naive young Muslims are made aware of such splendid Jew-hating material - and sure as bees make honey they are made aware, by the recruiters - they see no reason at all why the Jews ever fled into their midst (the Holocaust being a hoax, as the "enlightened Americans" say, so the Jews had nothing from which to flee!), and their hate for Jews, and misunderstanding of the Jewish "problem" grows, and their hatred for the U.S. for supporting Israel grows... with results we have seen only too clearly.
Yep, with such "enlightened Americans" spreading their message of love and tolerance, no wonder "enlightened terrorist-recruiters" elsewhere will have an easy time going about their business. "After all," says Mr bin Ladin, "even the many honest among Americans acknowledge the great wickedness of the Jewish Satan! So, any support they give Israel marks the U.S. as the Great Satan." Then, after some more good religion (seven virgins nonsense - no worse than the use of the Bible to justify race-hatred), it is down to the oath.
Cause (among many other causes, for sure)... and effect. 9/11. And more to come, alas.
I'm sure you agree, Rhonda. Sickening, isn't it?
--
Focus
(All TEN fingers pointing back - One of them that little bit more extended than the rest... Class)
Edited by - Focus on 20 December 2002 0:35:0
Robdar

Could Al Qaeda destroy America?

We are doing it on our own. The destruction of the United States is coming from within.
How many airline bankruptcies can we take? How much lower can the economy go?
9/11 did not help out the economy. But, it didn't start the problems either. Those problems were well in place before 9/11.
Can you afford to pay mortgage when you have no job?
Economies fluctuate. Before 9/11 people were losing their jobs. Millions of Americans have declared bankruptcy over the past couple of years. Corporate greed and corruption are breaking our backs.
Conservatives may consider liberals deluded and they are but this delusion is nothing compared to the conservative delusion that their agenda is anything other than naked corporatism. They are being sold a bill of goods with the pretty wrapping of family values and moral certitudes but the sad thing is that even though they know this, they refuse to take a firm stand that will endanger their comfort.
Let's face it, for every dollar given to every "welfare queen" (a racist statement made in an acceptable way) hundreds of thousands are given to the rich and powerful. The government is nothing more than their puppets. The sad thing is that by doing this, the rich and powerful doom themselves. Who are you going to sell to when nobody has the money to buy? I'm a dying breed, a member of the middle class.
What about if there is another attack and mob mentality develops, and people start lynching anyone with an arab accent? Would that be worse or better than what just happened?
That is about to happen anyway. The government is already rounding these people up. This sort of thing has a way of creeping up on you. First the media stories start. And by media I mean the puppets of the oligarphs. Then come the government pronouncements, then the action---delivered up in socially accepted phrases. By the time the action has occured, the majority left will view it as completely justified. The pundits will decry it but consider it a necessary evil. Then they will do their best to make you forget it ever happened.
If you don't believe me, read history. That's the way it's always been.
You had better start praying that you are not a member of the next identified group.
Robyn
Edited by - robdar on 20 December 2002 3:17:9

History doomed to repeat itself...

Share this