God hates wickedness.....but MUST allow it.

by gumby 60 Replies latest jw friends

Shakita

AGuest:
Not to argue, but I am very confused by your statement:
Dear ones, He made their flesh; their spirits, however, were their own. Just like the same two children can come out of YOU... each with their very own spirit... which can be as different as day... and night. Ask any parent.)
When a loving parent sees his children are on a wrong course, the loving parent will attempt to correct them. When a loving parent sees his children are hurt or in pain, the loving parent will attempt to help them. When a loving parent sees his children are fighting, the loving parent will step in and attempt to make peace.
When our loving God sees his children are on a wrong course, our loving God does nothing. When our loving God sees his children are hurt and in pain, our loving God does nothing. When our loving God sees his children are fighting, our loving God does nothing.
When does our loving God act like a loving parent?
Mrs. Shakita
Edited by - shakita on 9 January 2003 18:44:11
AGuest

Dearest Mrs. Shakita... the greatest of peace to you!
I must agree with you... and, sorry, I must also disagree with you... as follows:
When a loving parent sees his children are on a wrong course, the loving parent will attempt to correct them.
True.
When a loving parent sees his children are hurt or in pain, the loving parent will attempt to help them.
True.
When a loving parent sees his children are fighting, the loving parent will step in and attempt to make peace.
True.
When our loving God sees his children are on a wrong course, our loving God does nothing.
Well, that depends on who YOUR 'loving God' is. If you are referring to the Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the One whose name is JAH... of Armies... I must say, then, that your statement is entirely false. In fact, there is a vast history of what Jah "did" when He saw His children on a "wrong" course. A plethora of warnings, first, then... discipline... and in some cases, punishment, includind death. I personally can't call these things "nothing". And not only did He warn them, He them Himself. When they rejected Him, He sent messengers/prophets. When they beat them and ran them off... He sent His Son. They killed the Son. And since Adam had proved himself NOT to be a true son, well, that was his only one. May I ask you: who else do you want Him to send? Who else would YOU send?
When our loving God sees his children are hurt and in pain, our loving God does nothing.
Again, I have to say that if you're referring to the Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the One whose name is JAH... of Armies... your statement is false. In fact, there is also a vast history of what Jah did when He saw His children suffering. So much so, that many today decry Him as bloodthirsty and condemn Hisacts in defending/avenging His children. (But your statement, coupled with such condemnation is only further proof of earthling man's "fickleness": play the flute, but they don't dance; sing a dirge, but they don't mourn... Damned if He does; damned if He doesn't... can't win...)
When our loving God sees his children are fighting, our loving God does nothing.
Again, I have to say that if you're referring to the Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the One whose name is JAH... of Armies... your statement is false. Not only does He seek and teach peace among His children (He even send His Son to such so-called children), not only does He tell them what they SHOULD do if they have differences, He also admonished His children to love even their enemies!
When does our loving God act like a loving parent?
Ah, yes, and now, see, here's the "thing", dear Mrs. Shakita - it seems to be OVERWHELMINGLY assumed... that ALL humans... are God's children! I would ask where you and others keep getting that myth, but I know where. My question would be, then, considering all of the other lies you now know you've been told, why do you keep believing in that one? Have you not read/heard the plethora of evidence that blatantly REFUTES that very idea, including:
"Cain and Abel"; "the children of God and the children of the Devil are EVIDENT by this fact...;" "A man sowed seed and another wicked man who came and sowed HIS seed among them..."
etc., etc., etc.
God's children... are Israel... by means of blood, due to a promise made to Abraham... and all those who PROVE themselves Israel... by means of SPIRIT... due a promise made by Christ! God's children, then, are those who are in a COVENANT with Him... to BE their God... and BE their Father... whether the Law Covenant, leading to death... or the NEW Covenant, leading to life! Without the covenant... there is NO relationship! No sonship! For it is by means of holy spirit that under one covenant or the other... Abraham, mediated by Moses... or Abraham, mediated by Christ... that they are 'adopted' AS sons!
Now, before you (and perhaps some others) go getting all steamed over this, I ask you: did not the Pharisees consider themselves to be God's children, by means of being Abraham's seed? And, yet, what kind of people were they? Did Christ acknowledge them as sons, as his brothers? And don't the GB of the WTBTS consider themselves to be God's sons... the "anointed"? And what kind of people are they? Did/do either of these groups treat God's flock lovingly? Do they have ONE leader? Do they release and forgive and show compassion, pity and mercy?
OR... did/do they 'hate' their fellowman... judge and condemn... in word and in their hearts... did/do they 'kill' the prophets sent to them... did/do they prevent the little children from COMING to God... did/do they "shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men, preventing those who wish to go in from going in"... did/do they "devour widows houses and give long prayers for a pretense"... did/do they "abandon the sheep" to the wolf, who snatches and scatters them...?
Do you truly think either group could be considered sons of God... brothers of Christ... given their FRUITS?! Just because one is HUMAN... does NOT make one a child of JAH. For some... 'belong' to Allah. And some... 'belong' to Buddha. Some... 'belonged' to Hitler. And some... are indeed, "offspring" NOT of God... but "of vipers!" And by their FRUITS... the things that come OUT of them... you will know them!
Again, I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ, who is shaking her head over the continued overwhelming misunderstanding of this issue
gumby

P. S. God... is not "proving" anything. He doesn't HAVE to, for Satan HIMSELF proved himself a liar... when Adam and Eve died in the flesh...
Good one Shelmeister!I never thought about that as a dub, nor ever heard it put that way. I as you know was using dubtalk in my thread for satire.
For all of you who say God is not responsible....when you at the same time admit he could stop pain and suffering of innocent people or as these children is beyond me. If YOU .....were in God's shoes and could stop what that article mentioned......would you? Hell yes!
Give ONE reason why God doesn't stop it. Can there be a reason GOOD enough that you or I could say......."why yes, I see the point now". There is no excuse for a God to let horrible things happen especially when they are OUT of controll of the victim.........none!
Satanus

Shelby deftly sidesteps my basic statement:
God simply warned Adam and Eve of what would happen when they ate.
According to genesis, it was god who pronounced, enforced, carried out the punishments for adam and eve's sin. God added or withdrew something from his creations, not just adam and eve, but all of nature, so that suffering and death started. Genesis says god cursed the ground, increased eve's birthing pains etc. Even the bible says that god subjected creation to fulity. Guess you can't allow your god to be given the responsibility for his own actions, can you? He was following the rules he supposedly set up, himself.
SS
rem

Some irrational 'reasoning' ensues:
So, hmmm... can we blame... the caretaker? No, we can't blame the caretaker, 'cuz she's a stupid go-go dancer and crack addict, and who in their right mind would'a left their children with HER... What, blame the mom? Well, no, can't blame HER, cuz what could SHE do? SHE... was in jail... for assaulting someone (besides her children?!)... and besides, she made SURE her little babies would be well "cared" for by her good go-go dancing crack addict friend (who better to leave your children with when you're doing time?). How 'bout the "friend-ly" molester? Can we blame "him"? No WAY... cuz "he" was also mom's "friend", and well, no one else really cared about those little boys and they weren't HIS, so why in the heck should HE care, why not just get himself a little sumthin-sumthin what can it hurt, no one's looking cuz no one cares anyway... So it was mom's fault, after all... but she was in jail at the time and so she wasn't there, and so we can't blame her... and besides, she had left them in the "care" of her other good friend, the crack addict who should've made sure it didn't happen... How 'bout blaming the State of New Jersey who it seems had to approve whomever "mom" left the children with cuz it was them that was sending her to jail... can we blame THEM, 'cuz if they hadn't sent mom to jail, mom wouldn't had to leave them with a friend? Well, no, 'cuz it ain't their children... it's only their job to follow up on complaints, and, hell, there were only 10 complaints anyway, in 10 years... and only 3 of those were substantiated...
So, in Aguest's opinion, all of these people bear some of the blame (cutting through the thick sarcasm) because they did nothing, even though some of them had no power to do anything. But according to Aguest, God is certainly not to blame even though he also did nothing, but had the power to do something. Hmmm... interesting logic here. God basically sits back and places blame on people, but won't intervene when there is suffering. That makes God no better than the idiots who let this happen.
Think about it. If there were a police man watching all of this happen and he had the power to stop it, but didn't, would he be justified because a ton of other people let it happen too? No. He is just as guilty because he let it happen when he had the power to stop it. The same is true of God, unless you believe him to be impotent and unloving (or nonexistant). It's downright criminal behavior that would get anyone thrown in jail. But some people always make excuses for their impotent God.
as well as the "what would YOU have done and don't say report it 'cause it WAS reported... and if you think something should be done then why the heck don't YOU do it, rather than sit around on your keister blaming folks you don't even know (GOD) for the acts of folks you don't even know (abusers)... under circumstances you don't even know... and obviously are too blind to understand..."
And yet God didn't even report it. That was the least he could do and he didn't even do that! People who let bad things happen when they have the power to stop them are just as bad and evil as the criminals who commit the repugnant crimes. The only justification God would have for letting such things happen is if did not have the power to stop it. That would make God less powerful than the average man or woman.
rem
Trauma_Hound

Nine Inch Nails - "Heresy (Blind)"
he sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see
he tries to tell me what I put inside of me
he's got the answers to ease my curiosity
he dreamed up a god and called it christianity
your god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell I will see you there
he flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
he made a virus that would kill off all the swine
his perfect kingdom of killing, suffering and pain
demands devotion atrocities done in his name
your god is dead and no one cares
drowning in his own hypocrisy
and if there is a hell I will see you there
burning with your god in humility
will you die for this?
Edited by - Trauma_Hound on 9 January 2003 23:53:12
AGuest

"It was god who pronounced, enforced, carried out the punishments for adam and eve's sin. God added or withdrew something from his creations, not just adam and eve, but all of nature, so that suffering and death started. Even the bible says that god subjected creation to fulity."

Actually, God told them of the danger, forewarned them of the consequences, then held His ground - He did NOT "rescue" them but let THEIR choice be brought to fruition. He... unlike Satan... did NOT lie... which is what you... and all of creation... would be accusing Him of had the opposite... or nothing at all... occurred.
"Guess you can't allow your God to be given the responsibility for his own actions, can you?"
God has no problem being responsible for His actions, dear one. He even forewarns. The ones who always seem to have problems with taking responsibility is earthling man... starting with Adam ("the woman YOU gave me, SHE made me...") and Eve ("the serpent deceived me..."). Yep, everybody's fault... but the ones who actually do the deed.
"He was following the rules he supposedly set up, himself."
And there's a "crime" in that? If He has the power to set up the rules, then I would assume He has the power... and responsibility... to follow them Himself. Problem is, your accusation ASSUMES that He threatened... as opposed to warned. Read the account again.
And peace to you.
Your servant... and a slave of Christ,
SJ
AGuest

So, in Aguest's opinion, all of these people bear some of the blame (cutting through the thick sarcasm) because they did nothing, even though some of them had no power to do anything.

You have COMPLETELY misread me... and misstated me. I beg you, please go back and reread what I stated.
But according to Aguest, God is certainly not to blame even though he also did nothing, but had the power to do something.
Actually, my POSITION was... the mom did nothing (although she had the power to do something); the crackhead did nothing (although she had the power to do something); the molester-friend didn nothing... well, he did *something*... but also did nothing (although he had the power to do... and NOT do... something); the State of New Jersey did nothing (although it had the power to do something)... and yet... there was NO blame put upon these.
Hmmm... interesting logic here.
Indeed.
God basically sits back and places blame on people, but won't intervene when there is suffering.
Hypocrite.
That makes God no better than the idiots who let this happen.
No, in truth, it makes you as false as accuser as the others. Do you KNOW that God did nothing? Do you know that He didn't make possible the 10 complaints, hoping that WE... earthling man... would STOP the heinous behavior... either the mother "waking up" and getting a clue... or the State? How do YOU know that He did not intervene... or attempt to... only to have earthling man do his usual: ignore Him, disregard Him, curse Him... and then turn around and blame Him? Tell me, how DO you know what He did... or didn't do? He didn't kill the child; a HUMAN killed the child. And other HUMANS allowed it. KNEW about it and did nothing. We KNOW this. You, though, still haven't even figured out if God even EXISTS... yet, you will blame Him that you have no knowledge of... while making excuses for those you KNOW had knowledge and power in this matter.
Sigh! Earthling man...
Think about it. If there were a police man watching all of this happen and he had the power to stop it, but didn't, would he be justified because a ton of other people let it happen too? No. He is just as guilty because he let it happen when he had the power to stop it.
Really? So, I can assume, then, that the Social Worker who had knowledge of 10 complaints... as well as his/her supervisor who had to have knowledge, too, in order to sign off on the case... as well as the Director of the Agency, who had to have knowledge, too, to approve the signing off... will do jail time, too? Yes? Because they had the power to stop it... and didn't... and so are JUST AS GUILTY. Yes? And how much "energy" are YOU going to expend to make sure that they DO pay? How much time are YOU going to expend making sure the child is avenged by ALL of those guilty, including, if necessary, God... but let's just start with the humans for now? What are YOU gonna do? Nevermind, I already know: sit on your keister and whine and complain... and blame God. Of course. EASIEST thing to do, isn't it? I am sure the Social Worker, et al., will be happy to join you in your peuling ("God, why didn't YOU do something for that poor child?")
The same is true of God, unless you believe him to be impotent and unloving (or nonexistant).
It is no more true of God than it is for me or you. He doesn't interfere with other folks children any more than you or I do. If they... reject HIM... on behalf of themselves and/OR their children, He's not obligated to. HIS obligation will come "in the resurrection of the righteous... and the unrighteous."
It's downright criminal behavior that would get anyone thrown in jail.
One would think. How much you wanna bet me that not everyone "responsible" will do time?
But some people always make excuses for their impotent God.
Which is no more deplorable that people who always make excuses for the HEINOUS acts committed by HUMANS... against OTHER HUMANS... and then blame an entirely different species.
And yet God didn't even report it. That was the least he could do and he didn't even do that!
You assume. You have NO idea. You DO know, however, that none of the HUMANS involved did any of the things THEY were supposed to. And yet, not one word of blame. Not ONE. Not even one.
People who let bad things happen when they have the power to stop them are just as bad and evil as the criminals who commit the repugnant crimes.
Well, I have identified at least five "people", six if you count the mom... and you've not said one word. Not one word. And tell me, will you call the local papers and give you opinion of such "people"? Will your voice cry out to the State on behalf of that child? Nope. No, you're gonna play it "safe": come here and whine and moan about how bad "God" is... all the while telling yourself in your heart that it ain't YOUR problem anyway, there's nothing YOU can do. Hypocrite.
The only justification God would have for letting such things happen is if did not have the power to stop it.
Based on YOUR "law"... perhaps. This might come as a surprise to you, but, ummmm... God does not exist under your law.
That would make God less powerful than the average man or woman.
Perhaps. That remains to be seen. Personally, I've seen what "puny" earthling man is capable in his treatment of other humans. I have no desire to "call God out" and see what HE is capable of. You can keep doing it, though, if you like. Me? Let's just say that maybe I'll make sure I never stand too close to you. Just in case. I mean, if God is as 'wicked' as some of you want to make Him out to be, if He truly has so hard a heart that He has NO compassion for little children, then why should I have a problem believing He wouldn't 'zap' your behind without very much provocation?
Think about your foolishness: if God is cruel enough to close His ears to the cries of children, what in the WORLD makes you think He sitting somewhere scared and shivering at you and your false accusations? Either He IS compassionate and merciful, so as to hear little children as well as to NOT become incensed at your false witness and smite YOU... or He's not... and your days are numbered. Think about it, because in your self-righteous anger, you make no sense. Truly.
I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
Edited by - AGuest on 10 January 2003 2:14:26
LDH

God's children... are Israel... by means of blood, due to a promise made to Abraham... and all those who PROVE themselves Israel... by means of SPIRIT... due a promise made by Christ! God's children, then, are those who are in a COVENANT with Him...

OK, then, Shel. (By the way, I'm planning to be near you in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know.)
Then, answer me this. ASSUMING that what you said above is true, and not all people are God's children but only a select group of spiritual Jews, tell me then why God allows wickedness to come in on them at the same statistical rate as it does on the 'rest of us?'
I don't follow your logic on this one. Explain, please, I'm willing to listen.
Lisa
Satanus

forewarned them of the consequences,
He did NOT "rescue" them but let THEIR choice be brought to fruition.
occurred.
You are still putting god in the passive phase, as if he was not the enforcer of the punishments. Satan didn't carry them out. Adam didn't carry them out. Eve didn't carry them out. It was your god who executed punishment; imperfection, suffering, death, increased birth pains. Stop trying to pass on the blame for this. Can't you accept what your god did?
SS

God hates wickedness.....but MUST allow it.

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