God hates wickedness.....but MUST allow it.

by gumby 60 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Again, much peace to you, Gumby and Dbear and do not misread my emphasis please.

    Dannybear said: "It's late and I have a big day set up for tomorrow, so I have to get some sleep".

    Danny Bear is lying Shelly! He called me up and said he didn't like you anymore and doesn't want to talk to you anymore either

    Hahahahahahaha youre quite funny, Gumb, dear you are

    Not really of course.

    Of COURSE. The D-Bear is not the type. If he doesnt like someone, he has no problem telling em himself. And he didnt tell ME so

    You asked me what I prayed for....what I begged and pleaded for. I'll tell you.

    Please and thank you... sincerely!

    I asked in a way I felt I expressed my feelings the best I could describe. I said to God this.... 1) Please let me know what truth is and let me abide by it.

    Yes. And did He tell you what it is? I wouldnt think so, because truth is NOT a what it is NOT "law". Rather, it is a WHOM the FULFILLMENT of law... and certainly He has told you that. Indeed, I. Shelby, have told you as I have been directed to and the Bible tells you, too. How is it that youve not been answered?

    Or has the answer not been what YOU expected and from where/whom? Think hard before you answer this one, Gumby, please for MOST are looking for "do's" and "don'ts". But that is not what you will get when you ask that question.

    2) If your son is real let me know for sure. If you are real let me know

    Yes. Okay, now I want you to get REAL honest with yourself, dear Gumby. Do not worry about folks here, but rather about getting an answer to your question: do you TRULY not know that God and Christ are REAL? Or have you been misled from what you KNEW due to the propaganda of FALSE religion and earthling man? Think what do YOU Gumby irregardless of what anyone else may say, teach, think or believe including me, Shelby what do you KNOW? Only you know the answer to that.

    3) Please never leave me or let me leave you if you are real.

    Yes. And tell me, has He left you? Have you left Him? Entirely? Again, only YOU know the answer to this. I do not want/need you to respond here. This is for YOU and you alone. But, I ask you: be ENTIRELY honest with yourself as to what you KNOW. Do not consider your doubts, for all have them. Do you KNOW that God has left you or that you have left HIM? Or do you KNOW that you have been STUMBLED because what you once believed has proven false? And did that stumbling TRULY result in you leaving God or Him leaving you? Or has it only shaken you, down to the foundation, Christ. In TRUTH, has your house been truly built on sand, so that any great storm can wash it away? Or has it only suffered a bit of damage? Only YOU know the answer to that, Gumby.

    Shelly.....a father such as God knows what you need without asking. The bible says the Spirit "pleads for us".

    Indeed, it does. And you have heard ALL kinds of folks tell you NOT to believe in God, to NO LONGER exercise the faith you once had! And yet, you have not lost ALL faith, have you? And so, someone HAS been sent because you have not yet learned to hear on your own to say to YOU: THIS is the Way! HE is the One through whom you must approach HE is the One through whom God will speak to YOU LISTEN to HIM! And not meor the Borg or the wise ones the theologians, the religionist, the apologists, the atheists, the Gnostics, the christians, the scientists, the the the

    Do you think God would NEED the correct wording from me to answer?

    Yes... and no. It depends. On what? On what YOU are asking for... versus what your HEART is asking for. And yes, it can be different. Surely, you know that. And HE... will listen... NOT to your words... but to your heart! Why? To discern what it TRULY is that you want... want to KNOW! May I give you an example? Thank you!

    You know, certainly, that there are all kinds of people "praying for peace" these days, yes? Their mouths say, "We want peace!" But... as shown by their ACTIONS... do they REALLY want peace? Truly?

    Therefore, I ask you, what do you TRULY want? Do you want to know GOD's Truth, which is the Chirst, as well as all that such "knowing" involves? Or do you want to "know" a spirit being who can appear to you in the flesh and speak to you in your fleshly ears so that you can say, Yes, I believe, I know, without a doubt because some PHYSICAL manifestation has been provided you? Do you think He will provide such manifestation, even though He has SAID to you, through Christ, that His presence and that of His Son is INVISIBLE that in order to worship/see/hear/know Him, one must do so IN SPIRIT and THROUGH CHRIST (Truth)?

    Gumby, if He has TOLD you HOW to approach Him and through whom and what you need to do so... why would you expect Him to reply to you any other way? Because YOU need it done so? Do you remember my Lords words to Thomas, who NEEDED to see the holes, etc.? He said, You believe because you SEE? Happy are those WHO DO NOT SEE and yet believe. What did he mean? He meant that those who believed although they could not behold him with their physical eyes WOULD be happy as they would be among those who are happy it is those who are happy who see the face of God.

    Why is this so? Because SEEING is NOT believing!! Did not the Pharisees see? Did not the scribes and Sadducees? The Jews? Romans? Did they not SEE my Lord AND his miracles? Yet, did their SEEING lead them to BELIEVE?

    I ask you to consider this, Gumby. Because seeing physically and hearing physically has NOTHING to do with it! It is putting faith IN WHAT YOU CANNOT SEE OR HEAR that will RESULT in your seeing and hearing! Think Matrix: Neo had to KNOW what was there, although he could not SEE it before he could SEE it! Yes? It is exactly the same way. Unlike Neo, however, there is no need to be special. All that is NEEDED is FAITH: the ASSURED EXPECTATION of the things HOPED for the EVIDENT DEMONSTRATION of REALITY though NOT beheld! And so, just like Neos unique ability faith is not the possession of ALL men!

    So, what are you LACKING that you cannot see and/or hear? Faith. You NEED that. You say you HAVE faith? I thought I did, too. But, I found out that I did NOT! Why? Because I didnt REALLY understand what it was! Oh, sure, I knew what EARTHLING MAN had taught me it was. But they didnt know themselves! They taught me that faith was loyally attending meetings, and loyally going out in field service, and loyally listening to them and obeying them. It is nothing of the sort.

    And then, they attempted to teach me about the quantity of faith that it is WE who determine the amount. That, too, is a LIE! For faith is a GIFT of holy spirit as well as a FRUIT of Gods spirit! So, that man who THOUGHT he had faith asked, Help me out where I NEED faith! Why? Because all it takes is faith the size of a mustard seed and most of us dont even have that because most of us dont know what it IS!

    You want answers, dear Gumby? Then ask. And put FAITH in the answer you receive that it IS an answer and that it DID come from the Source. Do not ask for a sign, for that is lack of faith; no sign will be given. Ask and LISTEN. HEAR the answer as it comes from WITHIN YOU where God and Christ reside. Then put faith in the answer. If you ask: Do you exist? LISTEN and you will receive an answer. Then, put FAITH in the answer you receive. If you ask: Am I your son? LISTEN and put FAITH in the answer you receive and whom you received it FROM.

    A common sense check: If you ask should I poison my children because they are possessed by demons, dear one, IF it is God replying to you, through Christ, and God is love what answer SHOULD you receive? And if you receive a different one, then KNOW from whom it issues for God cannot lie, nor can He act outside of love!

    No....he would read my heart and answer a SINCERE request. I was sincere....I AM sincere.

    He knows that, Gumby. That is why He has not left YOU. You, though, must decide whether YOU will leave HIM! And earthling man is doing a great job in leading you in that direction, yes?

    This subject in my life is the biggest dilema I have EVER faced because since I was young I have had an intrest in God and truth.

    Dear one, we ALL have. It is inherent in us. Why? Because... we are "children". And our hearts show whom we choose as a father (and that choice, leads to our being "chosen" - hearts are examined, dear one... and kidneys... for such "choosing". It is NOT based how we walk and talk and dress and drink and eat, or attend church, meetings, field service, etc., for those things are deceptive. They don't really reveal a thing, do they?).

    That is why religion starts in on us so YOUNG. But my Lord is recorded to have said, Do not stop the little children from coming to me, and unless you become as little children Why? Because children HAVE FAITH! They have NO problem believing in what they cannot see. It is we adults who teach/chide/ridiculeand sometimes beat/molest/threaten that OUT of them! It is other adults who turn us away from God, acting unbeknownst to most of them, as agents of religion and thus, of Satan and Death. We SCARE God out of them by our false threats (God doesnt like/will get you for this!) by our conduct by our treatment of them by the things we DO to them.

    Sadly....the more I searched, the more I found reason to NOT believe the bible.....

    But neither my Lord or God WANT you to believe in the BIble. They WANT... you to believe... IN THEM! But know that the places and things you searched were DESIGNED to go beyond even that. beyond not believing in the Bible: they were DESIGNED to create in you, the desire not to believe IN GOD. And for many, if not most here, they have had that very result, haven't they?

    I beg you wake up! Why do you think the WTBTS's melarkey was SO believable?! Dear one, they HAD to be good at what they do! Why? Because we are the seed! And their GOAL is to deliver that seed over to the one who is waging war with it! Regular religion was not believable to us... so... it had to get even more intense, enslave us even more... so as to COMPLETELY ruin our faith!

    Please... wake up and see what you cannot! Open your eyes and ears (or rather, ask to have them opened!) so that you can STOP walking by SIGHT but put (and keep!) your mind on the things UNSEEN by human flesh! Don't let the Adversary accomplish what he has set out to... with you... as he has with most!

    Hence.....this in turn put doubts on Jesus of which he came from.....the bible.

    I can understand how you might feel that way. But it doesnt have to be that way. How did Abraham know about the Christ? Enoch? Noah? Moses? Did they have a Bible? Did they even have scriptures?

    Were it not for the bible Shelly how would you have known Jesus existed?

    Because, dear one neither God nor Christ dwell in handmade temples or the pages of a book/scroll. They dwell IN ME and have from the time I was conceived. That is WHY we have such a closeness and longing when we are YOUNG. But they did not leave me... I was (mis)led away from THEM! I have sought, though, to return as you and SO many others are. The question is return to WHERE or to WHOM? And if whom where? The answer is simple: IN YOUR HEART, dear Gumby. For that is where they reside!

    Would he have revealed himself to you?

    Absolutely! I had been misled, however, into disbelieving that He would... or even could! (God doesnt talk to people; youre talking to yourself!)

    How would he know you were looking for him as a savior were it not written in the bible?

    He knew ME and that I would look for him before I was ever born, dear one. Why? BecauseI came FROM Him! We ALL did! He is home. I have ALWAYS looked as have you as have ALL of earthling mankind. And religion has been designed by our Adversary to lead us AWAY from "home"... in all sorts of directions. But... the "Way" home is through a narrow "gate"... or "Door"... Christ. There is NO other way. I promise you!

    Which parts of the bible do you dismiss and what do you consider truth?

    (Smile!). None of is it truth, dear Gumby. For there is only ONE Truth! Now, which parts do I consider to be ACCURATE? That depends. For all of it has been subjected to the tamperings of earthling man, so that THEY can enslave and mislead and say what is bad is good and what is good is bad. So, I do not necessarily believe scripture over that which is not nor that which is not over scripture. What I DO is when I read or hear something (about something that is written) I ask the TRUTH is this correct, accurate? I listen NOT to what I read but what he SAYS about what I read when I ask How am I to UNDERSTAND this? What does it mean, what was meant when it was written, versus what it says NOW (because language changes; thus, meanings have been changed)? And he speaks in low tones. Truly.

    I think you and dannybear and myself need to get tanked up on some good brew and get together and discuss this stuff.....what do ya say?

    Fine by me but I dont get tanked (takes WAY too much ale for me to and I get full by the 3 rd or 4 th sixpack, so No, just kidding; I can only handle one or two beers/glasses of wine at a time (and then, thats only once a week or lesser) and then I just wanna go to sleep. So discussion would be almost impossible. But if you could talk with a clear head I am WAY game!

    Actually I live only a few hours from you and hope to meet you at an Apostofest someday as I do enjoy who you are.

    Hmmmm I would love to meet you, too, but I doubt if it would be at such a gathering. I tend to keep my gatherings small (save the occasional movie/concert/ballet/theatre/school/flea market event). To me, its just another form of well, religious (or perhaps non religious thing), given our common background. I personally dont see the benefit in it. I see who I want because I want to see them and them, me. Not because we have a common (yet horrid) background. What in the WORLD would we talk about? Yeah, I know the atrocities of the Borg. No, honey, I can get enough of that right here.

    But, if you would like to do lunch dinner brunch again, Im game. And no, it certainly doesnt have to be ONLY us but it would be for the benefit of building up (each other and others), versus tearing down something else. Capiche?

    You put a lot of time and effort in your thoughts and that IS appreciated as Dannybear already mentioned.

    Thank you! Your kind consideration of my thoughts as well as what I am given by my Lord to share is quite appreciated. Truly.

    Much love and peace to you, dear Gumb

    Your sis. (in a way ), and a slave of Christ to time indefinite.

    Shel

  • gumby
    gumby

    Hey Shelmeister

    Do you want to know GOD's Truth, which is the Chirst, as well as all that such "knowing" involves?

    Shelly.....you have told me time and again it involves nothing.....other than faith.So what does it involve that you mentioned?

    You said you knew Christ from birth. Please explain. I had no concept of the man until I was TOLD about him from someone....... like everyone else I know. Do you see my point?

    All others I know who believe in Christ are taking the word of someone that he truely existed....or......did exist, but was deified by people.

    You say that Jesus used the children that came to him as a comparison to how we should come to him........ask no questions, and just come. The case was a tad different in that scenario. They were THERE and supposedly SAW him face to face and SAW his miracles or were told them by their parents. Do we have this scenario today so that we should act as thosae kids did? No. Why?

    Because we are taking the words of men 2000 years ago.( remember shelly, god /jesus didn't reveal himself to us at birth )

    Do you have any idea of what the critics say about Jesus? Tell me a little of what you know the critics say about the "realness" of the biblical Jesus.

    I would also like to see Rem get his ass back into this and danbearmeister!

    Basically Shelly the question of the bible and Jesus being the real deal has MUCH against it and I wish it hadn't. I suppose if Jesus wants me he will let me know.

    I'm beat for now........and may return a little later or early morn.

    Gumby

  • rem
    rem

    Gumby,

    Sorry, man, I've just been getting pounded at work the last few days. No time an intelligent response. Plus it's just really annoying to have a discussion with Shelby, at least for me. I just don't have the energy for it right now and it just seems so... so... pointless. You're doing a great job, though!

    rem, of the working too hard class

  • gumby
    gumby

    Hey Rem,

    I understand. I've been working my butt off too. These discussions usually go nowhere but do have their benifits for those watching and it let's me use my own brain a little to ponder what and why things are said here.

    Don't work too hard and thanks for the support you showed on this.

    BTW.....you are invited with dannybear and myself to go and visit Shelby and get twisted sideways on some good hooch and iron this mess out.

    Gumby

    Edited by - gumby on 16 January 2003 8:8:49

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    "Involves"... dear 'Gumb... not "requires" (peace to you!). What does knowing God and Christ "involve"? Seeing... and hearing... that which you always have... but have forgotten, among other things... which earthling man has told you does not exist... cannot exist. Sort of like deja vu... but not earthly. It's funny what the mind/heart remembers, once it's been "jogged". Like when you were a little child and you saw something, but it didn't make sense until you were, like, 10 or 13, and all of a sudden you go, "OH! THAT's what that was! I remember now!"

    Yes, I am well aware there is a lot against the reality of the existence... and life on earth... of my Lord. Dear one, if everything was as we wish/need it to be... visible and discernable... even by the flesh... we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I find it curious that there is no disputing (or not much, anyway) the existence of Mohammed, Confucius, Buddha (or the man that represented him and was deified - I can't remember his name just now). But, well, IF the whole world IS "laying in the power of hte wicked one"... and that one has an agenda... I should not be surprised. He is expected to pull out all stops. But... there is great historical evidence of his existence, dear one. Just as there are skeptics as to whether the Holocaust actually occurred or not.

    It is as I told you before... I am not here to convince you or anyone else of anything. The discussion started as a false accusation made against someone I know to be innocent. In making a defense on behalf of one I love dearly, I was also challenged to answer other questions, including some about myself. I accepted that challenge... and made a reply. Several replies. Whether ones hear... or even WANT to hear... it out of my control. Questions were asked; response was made... in truth... for it was FROM Truth that I myself received it. That's is; that's all. Now... it is up to the reader... to use discernment. If one can believe it so - HURRAY, for TRUE freedom is just around the corner if such one will only ask for it from the One that dispenses it! No more enslavement to the flesh... or the false beliefs of the flesh, as taught it by earthling man.

    If one cannot believe it, however... so be it. Neither his/her belief or disbelief will add... or take away... one cubit from my lifespan. Because remember, Ezekiel 3:20-21: I am only responsible for TELLING what is true and accurate, especially if asked... to those asking or I am sent to. But it stops there. After that, each one is responsible for him/herself... as to whether they HEAR... or whether they refrain. And I am well aware that after all of the lies we've all been told, it is QUITE difficult to do either... hear... or refrain. My Father and my Lord are well aware, too. Thus, the "door/gate" has not yet been shut... and so the Spirit AND the Bride KEEP saying, "Come!" But they are not inviting you to come to something created and instituted by earthling man... for one must come IN SPIRIT... and TRUTH.

    As always, dear Gumby... I bid you the greatest of peace. Indeed, may the undeserved kindness and mercy of my Father, the God of my forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... come to be upon YOU... if you so wish it.

    Your servant... sister (in a way)... and a slave of Christ,

    Shel

  • ashitaka
    ashitaka

    Shel,

    You're a sweet lady, but if there is a God, in his all-seeing wisdom, he can surely see that I'd be a worthy addition to his flock, be I a believer or not. If he is up there, then he will not heat up the kiln when I come to town.

    If God is love, then I have nothing to worry about......my disbelief is based on the experience I have, and any other religious doctrine really isn't all that important.

    Have a good one,

    Ash

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Gumby, Rem, Shellby,

    First off Gumby I get 'twisted' enough around this place.....don't need no alkyhaaaal to do so. But Iam pretty sure Shell could stay right with us macho men, I know she likes to drink tequila!!!! Me and the worm juice are friends but if I embrace that friend to much, Iam liable to act like a raging bear. So I pick and choose the times, and places, very carefully when I drink the cactus juice. Wine and beer, lets have a party!!!!

    Gumby, Ash, you said pretty much what I feel. What Shell seems to try and ignore, is the very basis for her belief in her lord, is tied irrevocably to the Bible. Without which, she or any other christian, would have no claim to fame.

    So with that unarguable fact, it leaves those of us who have chosen to view the Bible's claim of divine authorship with a skeptical eye, pretty much out of any back and forth, trade verse for verse, so much the norm for those who believe.

    Shell you make very impassioned arguments for your faith. Even so there comes a time when even you must admit that somewhere 'never the twain will meet'. I think the discussion is good for any still considering thier own stand on the bible and religion, but it seems that you have encountered at least 3 or 4 of us, who have pretty well made up our minds. Think?

    Anyway it has been fun. I would be glad to 'get twisted' with any of you.

    Danny

  • gumby
    gumby

    Thanks, Dannybear, Rem, Ashitaka, and of course you Shelby.I enjoyed it too but we hit a dead end. We can pick up again on another thread.

    Over and out for me.

    Gumby

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Ash... peace to you... and I absolutely understand. I've "been there", too, which is why I kept asking, seeking and knocking. He loves you, dear one... He loves ALL of... even if we "prove" ourselves the son(s) of another. We can change that at any time. Think the "prodigal son's" FATHER.

    DearBearMan... much love and peace to you, too! Ta-Qill-Ya?! Did someone say "Ta-Qill-Ya"? Oh, yeah, that used to be THE drink! Worm and all (well, not the worm, but I sound kinda 'tough' sayin' that, don't I? LOL!) Can handle the occasional beer/glass 'o vine product... but the "hard" stuff - nahhh, I saw what it did to some of my loved ones... and well, "intoxicating liquor" ain't all it's cracked up to be methinks.

    I "hear" you, Danny... and all I ask is that you all hear me: I do not have my faith because of the Bible. Because of the BIBLE... I believed in "Jehovah". Dear one, there is no such one. Because of him REVEALING himself to me, I now KNOW Christ... and by means of him, know the Holy One of Israel... JAH... of Armies. I promise you, totally different folk that what earthling man has taught you. I was where you all were/are: if Christ is so special, how come I didn't know HIM? I mean, the WTBTS was "Jehovah this" and "Jehovah" that. But everything I FELT... everything that seemed LOGICAL... was that it was His SON that I needed to know... not know ABOUT... but KNOW... before I could ever know God. And that is what I asked for: I did not ask to know God... I did not ask to the "the truth". I asked to know His Son: "Why don't I know him? It seems to me that he is the One I need to know... please, let me know him..." and it occurred just as I asked: my Lord appeared to me... HE said... because I ASKED the Father to send him. And... he came. My faith, then, IS built on what I have seen... and see... and what I have heard... and hear. NOT... on what I was told... or what I read.

    Some time earlier in all of this for me, I DID read certain things in the Bible/scriptures... but only so as to get some back up to what I saw and heard... as, early on, I was not always able to put faith in it: "Omigosh, did I REALLY see that? Does such a thing/place/person exist? Can that statement be TRUE? Does this/that really mean that/this... versus what I was misled to believe?" Since not many others that I know layed claim to seeing or hearing what I had... it served as MY "second witness." But that has LONG since passed... several years ago. The more he spoke... and the more I listened to HIM... the less I needed the Bible. Because he can and does only speak truth... and he said to me, "All that I tell you IS written (but not necessarily in "the Bible"); but not all that is written is what I will tell you." It is then that he helped me understand the tampering, so that I should NOT put my faith in the Bible... but in HIM.

    NOW... the ONLY time I open the Bible... is: (1) to give substantiation to OTHERS of what I am sharing with them... as THEY need to see it "in writing"... and occasionally to review a Psalm or two... for additional comfort. Sometimes my spirit "groans"... so that I don't know EXACTLY what to say... (versus what most folks think, that you read them so as to HEAR something)... but always, ALWAYS... there is a Psalm that says just what I would have had I known the words. And it does so, because my Lord and I (and others) have the same "spirit"... which "bears witness"... with one another. So, our words WOULD be the same (David didn't write the Psalms, per se... he and others only wrote down MY LORD's feelings; they just applied to his life as well. To show this, one must start reading them... from the start... and see who it is, for the most part, that is speaking. True, David interjects from time to time, but 95% of it is my Lord speaking.)

    That's it; that's all.

    Dearest Gumby... not to worry: any such deadend is temporary, at least for me. This is not something I can turn off... or on. It doesn't work that way. As I told you prior, I counted the cost before entering this... ring. So, I know the "odds"... as well as the contenders. It was a very good "fight"; I have been blessed, served and reinforced by it. I have learned some things, myself... as I always to. I have shared things with you all that even I didn't know before (I have told you, this is NOT mine)... and I always do. So, there is always some benefit to me.

    I only hope that, if nothing else, rather than push you on your way into totally disbelieving in the existence of God and Christ, that you now have some "food"... for thought. That you all will at least contemplate... entertain... the possibility that they indeed do exist... that they are VERY alive... and that they speak to us and it is possible to hear when they do. That you don't give up hope. If, however, I've accomplished to opposite... pushed you further out in your disbelief... then I will have to make a reply for that. And I will, for it truly was not my intention and I know my Lord knows that and will accept my reply.

    To all of you, thank you for your kind consideration and loving patience in this conversation. Considering some discussions I've had... this was a breath of fresh air. For the most part, you were always kind and gentle... which is not always the case. Because of that, please know that I WILL remember you when I come into the kingdom that has been promised me. To that end, then:

    May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Holy One of Israel whose name IS... JAH... of Armies... and the peace of His loving Son and Christ, my Lord... JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... be upon you.

    Your servant... and a slave of Christ,

    Shelby Johnson

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    *** For the most part, you were always kind and gentle... which is not always the case. Because of that, please know that I WILL remember you when I come into the kingdom that has been promised me. To that end, then:***

    Who knows I may need you to remember me, before you attain 'the kingdom'..........either way the sentiment expressed is really quite beautiful. Thanks Shell.

    I hugged Cassi the other day so I think you get one to ((((((((((((((Shelby))))))))))))))

    Dannny

    Ps Still breathin? Ok I'll let ya go now.....no come here I want some more........

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