You are still putting god in the passive phase, as if he was not the enforcer of the punishments.
Actually, it is you who
misunderstands the warning, as well as the punishment. God SAID, For in the day you eat of it, you WILL die. He did NOT say, I will kill you/cause you to die. What YOU are asserting is that, if you are a freeway builder, and you build a freeway, yet you warn your child not the PLAY on the freeway, for that is not its purpose and someone else comes along and tells YOUR child that you are a liar, that they can and should play on it all they want, and that nothing will happen to them, but the only reason you told them not to is because you are afraid they will become like you and your child CHOOSES to listen to that one rather than listen to you and goes out and plays on the freeway and gets ran over by a truck it is all YOUR fault. Why? Because no matter what purpose you or others may have had for that freeway the very fact that you built it makes you guilty of the life of your child who died on it. You are saying that neither the child is guilty (for not listening to your warning) nor is the someone else guilty (for lying to your child, which lie led to his/her death). That... is what YOU are saying.
In TRUTH, the ground was not cursed by God it was cursed because Adam listened to Eve; it was cursed on [his] account. It was not an action taken by God; it was a RESULT of an action taken by Adam (even science says that for EVERY action... there is a RE-action; SOMETHING happens!).
Death did not enter in because of God brought him/it in; Death was able to enter because Adam LET it in (Just as sin entered through ONE MAN and death through sin). Previously, death was BANNED; he/it could NOT enter. Until Adam and not God... opened that door. And it is the same today we can allow place for the Devil. It is WE who give him access. Or we can OPPOSE him. Adam did not oppose him, and thus LET DEATH IN.
Eve is the only one who suffered a curse directly from God the increase of her birth pains as well as a craving for her husband, answered by domination by him. Prior to this, however, neither Eve nor Adam knew mourning, outcry or pain. Why? Because the flesh they possessed PRIOR had no sin in it! Thus, it could not know such things. And that was what God was TRYING to spare them from with His warning "knowing good" what it FELT like... AND bad (pain, suffering, death) and what IT felt like!
Satan didn't carry them out. Adam didn't carry them out. Eve didn't carry them out.
There was nothing TO "carry out". Satan, in his evilness WANTED Adam and Eve to know bad. Why? The same reason he wanted Job to know it and he wanted Christ to know it... and wants us to know it: so that we will curse God and die. Wake up, Saint. This aint rocket science. He is seeking his own agenda, which is to fill his own "quota"... that is, feeding HIS master, Death (who is NEVER satisfied!). And apparently, quite a lot of folks here want are ready and willing to help him out.
Adam was an idiot. Why? Because HE actually entertained the thought that he could be like God all the while KNOWING he couldnt. He KNEW he couldnt. But the temptation to see if he COULD was too great for him. Why? Because he, like Satan, though too much of himself. Rather than dismiss what he already knew could not happen, he entertained it. To his own detriment and that of his progeny. An Idiot.
Eve was also an idiot. She did not know how to control the desire of the eyes. Satan only deceived her into doing what was already in her heart, remember? She SAW that the tree was good for food (what, can you TELL a peach isnt poisonous just by LOOKING at it?) and that IT WAS SOMETHING TO BE LONGED FOR TO THE EYES, yes, the tree was DESIRABLE TO LOOK UPON. But all that glitters aint gold. And SHE knew that. She wanted what she wanted and Satan knew that. Thats why he spoke to her FIRST alone: he had SEEN her looking at the tree desiring what was on it.
And dont we all do that, form longings for things we CANT have? True, we form longings for things we can have, but with some or great difficulty. That, too, is normal. But we also form longings for things that we can NEVER have, because we just don't believe the odds. All of us do. You might want to check out just how many people play the lottery, even given the fantastical odds: The odds (or, in Adam/Eve's case, God) MIGHT be wrong; I/we MIGHT have chance. Check out how many people abuse drugs and alcohol, although they've HEARD the warnings: Well, it MIGHT not apply to me. I MIGHT be able to beat the odds and not become hooked and lose everything. I MIGHT. I'm gonna put it to the test and see.
Earthling man and HIS reasoning: go figure.
It was your god who executed punishment; imperfection, suffering, death, increased birth pains.
He increased birth pains, yes. Please g o back and reread about the others. Please.
Stop trying to pass on the blame for this.
LOLOLOLOLOL! It is not me who is trying to pass on the blame. Indeed, I am FIGHTING to help YOU all stop passing on the blame and see where the blame truly lies and rightly put it there: in those who perpetuate the acts, as well as those who lead them to do so, if anybody.
Can't you accept what your god did?
I can accept everything my Father has done does and will yet do. In what you are accusing Him of here, however, He is innocent.
All satan did was encourage more variety in diet.
Hmmm... not only are you willing to blame innocent blood (God's), but you are also willing to excuse main perpetrator (Satan). Now, why would you want to do that? (And some folks here say I am the fool... )
Satan challenged Eve and Adam to answer his challenge regarding our their OWN weaknesses, that they would give precedence to them, no matter what the cost: Eve, the desire of the eyes; Adam, the desire for more power. He made the SAME challenge with regard to Job, my Lord, and others, including myself. In the case of Adam and Eve, he was right. And he is right in MOST cases, even, to some degree, mine. But rather than trust in MYSELF because I KNOW what is in me I have turned myself over to one who is stronger than I who can COVER me, when Satans challenge proves right. When I err because of the desire of my flesh, the desire of my eyes and whatever other bad thing is in my heart.
Because they do exist, and I am not always powerful enough myself to overcome them. So, then, I get my strength and power, NOT from eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, and trying to be "like" God through that way, but from eating from the leaves of the Tree of Life. In that way, even when I err, which error can result in death, I can LIVE by means of such eating. (Gen. 3:23)
All eve did, as the cook of the garden, was try satan's new recipe.
Well, of course... she was nothing more than a poor, emotional, flight-headed girl, right?! And we all know that they (girls) all "belong" in the kitchen because they are flaky and irrational and often times can't even be trusted cook a good meal (for heaven's sake, the ditz fed her husband 'tainted' fruit!), let alone make a level-headed decision. Right? So, okay, no harm in that, I guess even if the new recipe contains poison what the heck. Yes?
In the bible, shelby's god actually made the changes in humans and nature that led to all of the wickedness and suffering on earth.
Yes, God built a freeway, told His children NOT to play on it for if they did there was fatal danger awaiting and another, well, obviously innocent and very kind person, comes along and says, Pish-posh, little children, you want to go play and children should be able to play and your father's a mean 'ol man for not letting you, so I say just go and play 'cause really, nothing's going to happen to you and so, they go play and they get hit and become severely injured and disfigured and, of course, God is to blame.
Yes, I can see that. Surely.
Therefore, i maintain that god is the author of wickedness.
Well, of course, you would. I mean, that is your purpose after all, isn't it, to maintain such?
In the bible, shelby's god actually made the changes in humans and nature that led to all of the wickedness and suffering on earth.
Why are you lying to these dear people?
Dear ones, if you will go back and read the account, you will see that the change took place IMMEDIATELY after they ate. God wasnt even there at the time. The change happened immediately and exacted in them a need to HIDE themselves. Remember? And God gave them a COVERING a long garment of skin to hide the change. Do you remember that? He didnt change them, dear ones... He only provided a COVER for the change one they didnt NEED before. Why? Because the change resulted in them becoming so UGLY so UNCLEAN it NEEDED to be hidden. They... could no longer look upon themselves.
One result of that covering, however, the NEW skin that they were given is that it housed pain. Hence, Eves increase in birth pangs.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
Edited by - AGuest on 12 January 2003 14:49:33
