Do We Really Know Who Is Responsible For 9/11?

by SpannerintheWorks 103 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  D8TA

  It was do-gooders just like you who caused Pearl Harbor to be attacked without any worhty retaliation in 1941. Read your HISTORY! We were sick of the carnage of only one year of battle in WWI and folks and politicians told us to ignore Japan and Hitler in the 1930's. These dreamers (like you) figured that if we didn't mess with them, they wouldn't mess with us. Had those same dreamers had any common sense, World War II would have been much easier, if we just stopped Germany and Japan before Japan killed a whole bunch of our citizens on December 9, 1941 and Hitler declared war on us the next day or so.

  They say hind sight is 20/20 eh?

  What Farkel forgot to mention was the reason why the MAJORITY of American Citizens AND Congress (these "do-gooders" and "dreamers") were reluctant to get involved in WW2.

  Take yourself out of your 21st century computer monitor and journey back in to 1939 for a moment.

  Trouble is brewing in Europe. Majority of Americans didn't want to send there sons and daughters off over seas again because they still had the taste of blood from WW1 in their mouths. There also was the depression which also lent to this sense of apathy that was infecting the nation. By the time 1937 rolled around and the Congress passed the Neutrality Act, making it unlawful for the United States to trade with belligerent nations. NOT ONLY TO MENTION THE U.S.A. WAS IN NO SHAPE ECONOMICALLY OR MILTARILY TO INVOLVE THEMSELVES IN A WAR! Even our military hardware (tanks, planes, guns, artillary, etc.) was SUB-PAR to Germany's war machine.

  After Nazi-Germany started it's military offensive, yes finally, we did sell arms and such to Britan and France, not to mention send aid. The U.S. also started training and building up it's airforce at the time, hell we didn't even really HAVE ONE. Germany was way ahead of the U.S. in air-warfare and would of wiped U.S. from European skies. Hell, not even to mention U.S. tanks were no match against Germany (at that time or even WHEN the U.S. went to war). If the U.S. had just "hopped" in to the war in this condition, it would of been a slaughter for the U.S. forces. We didn't have the money, resources, or military strength to just go gallavanting in to conflict over seas.

  What Japan did was screw the U.S. royally in the arse as to attacking Pearl Harbor after signing a Non-Agression Act. So as to "dreamers" and "do-gooders" of the day, took Japan at it's treaty. Remember folks, things were a little different in geopolitcs and social relations in those times.

  Jeez, makes ME wonder if FARKEL read his WW2 history. Hell, not even that, go read some old news paper clippings and periodicals of the times. It would defunct your "dreamer" and "do-gooder" point of view in a heart beat.

  Now Farkel, COMMON SENSE should be talking here instead of the "woulda-coulda-shoulda" hindsight point of view you're typing. Sorry Farkel, but your "dreamer" & "do-gooder" argument is not winning over history.

  Don't mess with me on WW2, it's been my hobby since my late teens, and I've studied it extensively.

  Want a nice interesting quick read material about WW2? Here ya go:

  http://worldwar2history.info/

  Instead of reading with Farkel's hind sight vision, put yourself in the shoes of Americans at the time, who really didn't know what the hell was going on in the world around them. It's easy to judge people of the past as being "do gooders" and "dreamers", because we in the present can analyse ALL the vast information provided. Remember, when reading your history, events were evolving with an uncertain future. But you really don't need to be told that.
• 

  Emiliano
• 

  heathen

  D8TA- Those are some accurate points you made . Fer gods sakes all you have to do is turn on the history channel on occassion and check out the America at war series to get a look at what was going on.
• 

  Emiliano

  D8TA,

  He cant be told that he is 54 and a half !

  Edited by - Emiliano on 15 January 2003 1:28:3

  Edited by - Emiliano on 15 January 2003 10:50:30
• 

  Aztec

  Mac dear, smooches!!

  I am learning daybyday....:(

  ~Aztec
• 

  Emiliano

  Farkle,Heathen, D8TA

  Thanks for the dialogue, good nite y'all.

  Sorry Azteca you too,good nite!

  Edited by - Emiliano on 15 January 2003 1:32:42

  Edited by - Emiliano on 15 January 2003 1:33:39
• 

  Aztec

  Damnit!!!!!! AWWW!!!!!!

  ~Aztec
• 

  Mac

  Aztec,

  What's yer game? What is the meaning of that reply?

  mac
• 

  Farkel

  D8TA,

  I don't see where you defeated ANY of my arguments. I only see where you confirmed them. Let's examine what you said, then:

  : What Farkel forgot to mention was the reason why the MAJORITY of American Citizens AND Congress (these "do-gooders" and "dreamers") were reluctant to get involved in WW2.

  So far, so good.

  : Take yourself out of your 21st century computer monitor and journey back in to 1939 for a moment.

  So far, so good.

  : Trouble is brewing in Europe. Majority of Americans didn't want to send there sons and daughters off over seas again because they still had the taste of blood from WW1 in their mouths.

  Which is EXACTLY what I already said.

  : There also was the depression which also lent to this sense of apathy that was infecting the nation. By the time 1937 rolled around and the Congress passed the Neutrality Act, making it unlawful for the United States to trade with belligerent nations. NOT ONLY TO MENTION THE U.S.A. WAS IN NO SHAPE ECONOMICALLY OR MILTARILY TO INVOLVE THEMSELVES IN A WAR! Even our military hardware (tanks, planes, guns, artillary, etc.) was SUB-PAR to Germany's war machine.

  True.

  : After Nazi-Germany started it's military offensive, yes finally, we did sell arms and such to Britan and France, not to mention send aid. The U.S. also started training and building up it's airforce at the time, hell we didn't even really HAVE ONE. Germany was way ahead of the U.S. in air-warfare and would of wiped U.S. from European skies. Hell, not even to mention U.S. tanks were no match against Germany (at that time or even WHEN the U.S. went to war). If the U.S. had just "hopped" in to the war in this condition, it would of been a slaughter for the U.S. forces. We didn't have the money, resources, or military strength to just go gallavanting in to conflict over seas.

  Right, but your argument is not about WWII, it's about Iraq, so this is all just a nice history lesson, which we all know already.

  : What Japan did was screw the U.S. royally in the arse as to attacking Pearl Harbor after signing a Non-Agression Act. So as to "dreamers" and "do-gooders" of the day, took Japan at it's treaty.

  Yet, you are arguing that we should take Sadaam at "his" "treaty." Pathetic.
  
  : Remember folks, things were a little different in geopolitcs and social relations in those times.

  Yeah? What is the difference that should make us take Sadaam as his word, then? I will dog you until you give an answer that satisfies your thesis.

  : Jeez, makes ME wonder if FARKEL read his WW2 history. Hell, not even that, go read some old news paper clippings and periodicals of the times. It would defunct your "dreamer" and "do-gooder" point of view in a heart beat.
  
  You haven't made anywhere NEAR a point that proves your assertions, my little friend. Would you like me to point out where and why?

  : Now Farkel, COMMON SENSE should be talking here instead of the "woulda-coulda-shoulda" hindsight point of view you're typing. Sorry Farkel, but your "dreamer" & "do-gooder" argument is not winning over history.

  See above.

  : Don't mess with me on WW2, it's been my hobby since my late teens,

  Yes, I understand that those who were born in the 1970's and 1980's know all there is to know about that, while those uf us who's own FATHER FOUGHT in that war couldn't possibly know anything about it.

  : and I've studied it extensively.

  Do tell. Please tell us all what you know. Let's start with the Battle of Britain. Do you remember that one? Do you really know how bad that battle was? Have you had peers who remember that battle, and what the Brits had to actually do to survive it? (Oh, sure. You can run to the Internet and look like a friggin' genius with facts, but have you ever actually KNOWN and spoken with someone WHO WAS THERE when it happened?) Do you think that books can tell a better story than the first-hand evidence of people who witnessed the event that you merely read about? Please tell me the all the stories you know about my father watching his best friend being blown up on his Ship by the Japanese enemy in 1943? I'd love to hear your stories about that.

  : Want a nice interesting quick read material about WW2? Here ya go:

  : http://worldwar2history.info/

  I'll check it out. Thank you. I'm always willing to to learn stuff.

  : Instead of reading with Farkel's hind sight vision, put yourself in the shoes of Americans at the time, who really didn't know what the hell was going on in the world around them. It's easy to judge people of the past as being "do gooders" and "dreamers", because we in the present can analyse ALL the vast information provided.

  You claim that. You haven't demonstrated in the least that you can do that. You are still a "dreamer" who thinks he knows everything and doesn't know shit. I was there, too. My generation had all the solutions for everything in 1969. Now, were just old fat, fucks who don't know squat about sqaut. The only difference between your generation and my generation is that we finally figured out we don't know squat about squat. But press on and believe in what you do! We did!

  : Remember, when reading your history, events were evolving with an uncertain future. But you really don't need to be told that.

  That's the smartest thing you've said that I've responded to. The future is indeed, uncertain. I think Bush is on the right track. You don't. Only time will tell, my younger friend!

  Farkel
• 

  D8TA

  The issue with Saddam is no different. Given enough time, he WILL attack us, just like he attacked his own Kurdish people, Kuwait, Iran, Israel and tried to attack Saudi Arabia. Bush is spot-on in taking the initiative to stop him before he starts. Your children will be grateful he did this, and someday you will realize the world is not as pretty as you hope it is. Many people are just barbarians, and all the feel-good thinkers in the world cannot change this fact.

  Yes, the issue with Saddam is different.

  This isn't the innocence of the 1930's anymore Farkel. The U.S. has been broke down politically, socially, and economically and built up, only to be broke down and built up again! Damn it, this is basic. The U.S. is a lot different then that of the U.S. 60 some odd years ago. It's not as simple as it once was. Even THEN it wasn't simple.

  We have to factor in all the; push and shove, pollitical corruption, corporate-American interest, oil, trade, arms dealing, domestic intelligence agency power shifts, domestic and international agency scandal, propaganda from all sides, back alley political deals, sanctions, embargos, sovreignty rights of nations, humanitarian rights, military interests, the stock market, foreign interest of all kinds, diverse cultural viewpoints, * takes breath *, U.N. involvement, diverse religous involvement, policy of previous adminstrations, etc., etc., etc.! And this isn't just from a U.S. vs. Iraq/Korea point of view either, we have to factor in EVERY nation to this global community as to this small list.

  Not to mention, what has 9-11 brought the U.S. so far and what is there still to come? So far I see: The Patriot Act and the Dept. of Homeland Defense being the greatest travisty as to what the U.S. stands for, and for what? We don't even have Osama Bin Laden! The only thing that is no different from the 1930's is that...again...we the people on this planet don't know what the hell is really going on!

  The web of geopolitics is so big now, there is no one person who can unravel it. It's huge! And those who pull the strings...well hell...THEY don't even know what is going to happen. You...Me...Them...nobody. We can't just start throwing "well, just like WW2 we gotta" arguments out there. You can learn from history, yes, but as to cause of action of future events...who can really say? Who really knows?

  The only thing we have to work with, is what we got so far. We can throw "what-ifs" out there all we want. You, me, them.

  If we play the "what if game" well...Here's a few legitimate "what ifs":

  What if taking Saddam Hussien out of power causes other mid-east countries to say, "Well holy crap, we aint gonna let the U.S. do that to us!"...wonderful, now we have an entire region ready to attack the U.S.

  What if taking Saddamn Hussien out of power gives the world something worse, a whole new regime that is built upon blowing the entire world to hell because Allah or Jesus or Willy Willy Woo - God of Leather Pants wants them too?

  What if China sees this whole Korean conflict as there way to attack the U.S.? I don't know about you, but they have a pretty strong military, and fending them of U.S. shores won't be like Japan.

  Weapons...hell, now EVERYONE has "the bomb". Jeez, who cares about going in to situations cautiously, lets just start rolling U.S. policy all over the world through military might...throw caution to the wind. What's a few hundred nukes landing in peoples neighborhood, eh?

  That's the price of Capitlism dear Farkel...THAT is the price. It's no longer about "Freedom" or "Liberty" in which your father respectfully fought for. Those days are over, they are gone. What do we have now? Celebrities, Corporations, Politicians and Special Interest groups enjoying the best JUSTICE money can buy, while the common U.S. citizen (and other people of the world) are loosing their individual rights, liberties, and freedoms.

  And MARK MY WORDS: The Patriot Act and Dept. of Homeland Defense is the beginning of the end to the America you (Farkel) are talking about. Is it worth fighting for? Is it worth fighting for the rich and corporate interests of this world? Every dirty exploitation of decent folk in the world, that comes out of it? Is this the "best" we as humans can do? Is this the "best" there is to offer? United Socialists and Corporate Interests of America.

  It's time to to tear down and rebuild again, if you are wanting the "old" U.S. back. And perhaps, just perhaps, people that are rocking the boat are the ones who are keeping that "American Dream" alive. They aren't attacking America, they are attacking as to what America has become. A corrupt nation that is exploiting the rest of the global community and pushing it's point of view on the rest of the world. Not the point of view of Democracy, hell no, that's to be "earned" by those nations who seek it. No, I'm talking about the point of view that caters to the power hungry politicians and corporations in which pull the strings in the world. The U.S. is the only super power in the world...and what is that saying? Absolute power?

  Ah hell, what does it matter, to me...to me it's just another chapter in human history of survival of the fittest. Another example of King of the Hill. Shit...with all of what "little" I've accumlated in my small mind so far in 31 years of my life, just leads me down Apathy Lane. Time to hit the beach and watch the sunrise, for the way the world is going today...there just might not be one tomorrow.

  Edited by - D8TA on 15 January 2003 2:58:26