Spice, even the Watchtower admits it!
I have been challenged
by SpiceItUp 36 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
AlanF
: My father has told me that if I can disprove the Bible on any point he will discontinue beliveing in it.
The problem with a challenge like this is that JWs, and Bible believers in general, are extremely slippery when it comes to proof. No matter what you come up with, which would be proof to most people, they go "But, but but but but ......" and come up with every excuse under the sun to avoid admitting what they don't want to admit.
The problem is that Bible belief is 99% emotionally based. Such beliefs can never be disproved with logic. The only way to dismantle an emotional belief is with an emotional argument. Finding the argument that will get through to a person is difficult; the key is as varied as individuals are.
AlanF
-
Beans
Oh look Spice, just click on each Chapter and find anything that will challenge him! Isn't the Internet a wonderful thing!
Beans
-
Elsewhere
(One of my personal favorites from the Quotes website ):
"As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible" - The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126
http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tcont.htm
Here are a few of the contradictions:
Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your posession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)Is God Peaceable?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36)
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36)Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.Shall we call people names?
Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)How many gods are there?
Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7)Are we all sinners?
Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3)
Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6)When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"Shall we obey the law?
I Peter 2:13 Submit yourself to every ordinance of man.
Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men. -
mustang
Elsewhere,
Can you post the pertinent "ID spec's" on the couple of books you have mentioned? That is ISBN #, author, publisher, publishing dates, edition #'s & so forth. Those books look "juicy" & i'd like to get them for my reference library.
Thanks,
Mustang
-
Siddhashunyata
Introspection has the right idea here. Notice how you feel burdened because in your heart of hearts you know nothing will work. There is no proof strong enough for someone that is emotionaly dependent on the idea that the Bible is infallible. This can be seen by the 150 year old war still being fought between the Fundalmentalists and Biblical Higher Criticism. No amount of evidence or reasoning can overcome the emotional dependency. One must become desperate enough to accept the truth no matter what it proves to be. This can happen by seeking the answer to a question such as "Who am I ?" or it can come by profound disillusionment. If your father has not reached this state he is not "open" for evidence and you are in for strife.
-
Elsewhere
Mustang,
Just follow the hyperlinks to Amazon.com and you can get all of that information from there.
-
mustang
Blueblades, Buster,
"I think you'll love this one: There is no rational basis for including the Divine name in the New Testament. Franz had no grounds to translate hundreds of references 'Lord' to Jehovah. 'Jehovah' just ain't there. "
"When using the NWT. he can be challenged by using the "Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures, 1969 and 1985 versions by the Society along side of the NWT. and he will see how the Society has changed the Greek words to fit their interpretations."
RE the Kingdom Interlinear:
A relative mentioned that he started a "family study". They just decided to read from the KI(?) and happened to start into it's introduction. He said they encountered (to his son's great surprise) a statement to the effect of "...the name Jehovah really isn't in there, but we feel IT BELONGS THERE..."!!!
I don't have a copy, so I am unsure of this. Can anybody verify this???
If this is indeed there,USE THIS!!!!
Mustang
PS My apologies to the thread; I am not trying to hijack it, but this seems peripherally related so I thought that I would ask it.
Edited by - MUSTANG on 20 January 2003 19:11:52
-
Xander
'Jehovah' just ain't there.
I actually have my Interlinear Translation handy for just this occasion. (I only have newer literature, like 1980+, so this was the only thing I'm intentionally keeping).
YOU MUST GET THE INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION IF YOU WANT TO ATTACK THEM.
Else, they'll do as others said, dodge the issue, 'but but but' you, etc. If you can show them DIRECT proof of translation errors, that might open the door.
Here are some freebies:
Compare Rom 10:9 vs Rom 12:19 (same book!) How is Kupios translated in one place, and then the other? Same word, different meanings?
Compare 2 Thes. 2:1 vs Luke 2:9. How is Kupiou translated in one place, and then the other? Same word, different meanings? What would happen if they were both translated the same?
Jesus uses the phrase 'Truly I say to you...' over 50 times in the New Testament. In EVERY case, the NWT translated 'Truly I say to you, (COMMA!), blahblahblah'. See John 3:2, John 5:19, Mk 8:12, Mk 9:1, Mk 9:41, Mk 10:15, Mk 14:9, Matt 6:2, Matt 10:15, Heb 4:7, Luke 12:37, Luke 18:17, Luke 18:29, Luke 21:32, etc.
It's important to use the Interlinear here, so he can see that the original Greek is EXACTLY THE SAME in all cases. Now, compare the original text of Luke 23:43. And compare how the WTBTS translated that ONE instance of 'Truly I say to you'. How does the placement of the comma change the meaning of the scripture? Why do you suppose they made that change?
----------------------
In any case, the above attacks two of the WTBTS primary teachings, and shows how they doctored the bible to match their beliefs. If this doesn't open the door - proving the WTBTS false using their own literature that your father undoubtedly has in his own house and is still considered 'accurate' - I don't know what will.
-
Xander
He said they encountered (to his son's great surprise) a statement to the effect of "...the name Jehovah really isn't in there, but we feel IT BELONGS THERE..."!!!
They actually beat this to death in the introduction - devoting 2-1/2 pages to it. Essentially, it boils down to, "We believe the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has been tampered with, removing the divine name and substituting Kyrios 'Lord' and Theos 'God' in its place. Although we just KNOW it was removed, we don't know from where and from where Kyrios and Theos were actually the original words used. So, we pretty much haphazardly replaced them with YHWH to fit our doctrines. But, modern translators have made replacements in the same places before. We're not going to say who or when. But, trust us, this isn't all our idea. Really."
EDIT: It is worth noting they also devote an entire appendix to it (Appendix 1, as it happens). But, most of the 'proof' they present there has been discredited from other sources.
Edited by - Xander on 20 January 2003 20:48:36