Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  SwedishChef

  Joseph,
  
  The name which translates "God" in Genesis chapter 1 is "Elohim". This is a plural noun, which indicates God is not one, nor two, but at least three. I'm interested in what your thoughts are on this.
• 

  JosephMalik

  SwedishChef,

  I see that you do not even know what we are talking about.

  Joseph
• 

  SwedishChef

  Joseph,
  
  Thanks for that thorough explanation.
• 

  SwedishChef

  Joseph,
  
  Jehovah, in Isaiah 44:6, says: "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
  
  There is the same phraseology spoken by Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:17.
  
  "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"
  Here Christ claims the title "First and Last", which is same title Jehovah claimed in Isaiah.
  
  And how do you explain this Joseph?
  
  Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
  
  Here, Jehovah says "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced". Now we all know that it was the Lord Jesus who was pierced. How do you explain this?
  
  Revelation 1:7,8 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
  
  Here is a passage parallel to Zechariah 12:10. Jesus Christ is claiming to be the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, and the Almighty. We know it is Him speaking because the context demands it, and because it describes Him as being pierced.
  
  Joseph, you have to turn a blind eye to a lot of Scripture to proclaim that Jesus isn't God.

  Edited by - SwedishChef on 31 January 2003 21:14:21
• 

  siegswife

  Joseph,

  YHWH means "the Existing One". That's because He is.

  There is no other name for the Father and no other name for the true God for that matter in scripture. There are many titles and descriptions but no other names for Him.

  Jesus is identified as the "Eternal Father" at Isaiah 9:6. Is he?
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph Malik said:
  

  Sure because this Messenger is directly representing God the same as if God were actually there.

  Right there is the problem.

  An angel in Revelation Chapter 22 is directly representing the Father and Jesus the same as if the Father and Jesus were actually there. In Revelation Chapter 22, the angel tells John "do not worship me", so this shows that the Supreme Being will not accept worship directed through any of His created beings, not even mighty angelic beings.

  In fact, the 2nd of the 10 Commandments forbids worshiping the Supreme Being through anything or anyone who is not the Supreme Being.

  Please explain why the "Angel" in Exodus Chapter 3 actually tells Moses to remove his sandals because the place where he is standing is holy because God is there?

  Is that not an act of worship which only the Supreme Being should receive?

  Why is it that other angels who appeared to humans did not tell them to remove their sandals because the ground is holy?

  If the "Angel" in Exodus Chapter 3 was a created angel, then shouldn't the ground be holy every single time that an angel appears to a human?

  The only other time in the Bible where a Heavenly Being appears and tells someone to remove their sandals because the ground is holy, is in the following Verses:

  Joshua 5:13: It happened, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a Man over against him with His sword drawn in His hand: and Joshua went to Him, and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our adversaries?
  Joshua 5:14: He said, No; but as Captain [or Prince] of the Army of Yahweh I have now come. Joshua fell on his face to the Earth, and did worship, and said to Him, What says my Lord to His servant?
  Joshua 5:15: The Captain [or Prince] of Yahweh's Army said to Joshua, Put off your shoe from off your foot; for the place on which you stand is holy. Joshua did so.

  Joshua 6:2: Yahweh said to Joshua, Behold, I have given into your hand Jericho, and the king of it, and the mighty men of valor.

  The Captain/Prince of Yahweh's Army tells Joshua to remove his shoes because the ground is holy.

  The Captain/Prince also receives Joshua's worship and is called Lord.

  Joseph, can you please explain why the angel in Revelation Chapter 22 would not even think about accepting worship, but the angel(s) in Exodus Chapter 3 and in Joshua Chapter 5 accepts worship?

  The Captain/Prince is also called Yahweh (in Joshua 6:2).

  This Captain/Prince is the same Person as the Messenger in Exodus Chapter 3 -- He is the Word/Logos -- who is Truly YHWH.

  Joseph said:
  

  Creation was also delegated in a similar way.

  So far, you have said the following, Joseph:

  1: The Father, who alone is the Supreme Being and YHWH, only created "the big things" such as the Heavens and the Earth.

  2: The Father delegated creation of "the little things" such as humans and animals and kingdoms to other Heavenly Beings (which you have no idea how they came into existence), including not only the Word [Jesus] but also the angel who became Satan.

  3: You teach that the Father did not create humans.

  Joseph, you make YHWH a liar!

  If you are correct on this, then it means the Supreme Being is a liar, as is shown in the following Scriptures:

  Isaiah 44:24: Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth (who is with Me?)

  Isaiah 43:7: everyone who is called by My Name, and whom I have created for My glory, whom I have formed, yes, whom I have made.

  Isaiah 45:11-12: Thus says Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel... I have made the Earth, and created man on it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the Heavens; and all their host have I commanded.

  Nehemiah 9:6: You are Yahweh, even You alone; You have made Heaven, the Heaven of Heavens, with all their host, the Earth and all things that are thereon, the seas and all that is in them, and you preserve them all; and the host of Heaven worships You.

  Revelation 4:11: "Worthy are You, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for You created all things, and because of Your desire they existed, and were created!"

  Colossians 1:16: For by Him [the Son] were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.
  Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.

  John 1:3: All things were made through Him [the Word]. Without Him was not anything made that has been made.

  Joseph said:
  

  And the I AM is not a name nor is it identified as a name in the text. Where is the I AM called my name? Nowhere.

  YHWH told Moses to tell the Israelites that "I AM" had sent him. I agree that "I AM" is most likely what we today would call a descriptive title like "God" is.

  But I do know that the Bible in Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus Christ's "Name" will be "Mighty God", "Eternal Father", "Prince of Peace", and "Wonderful Counselor".

  Joseph, are those names or not?

  Joseph said:
  

  And how is it that in the Greek text translated by Jews themselves it is rendered I AM the Being not I AM period?

  I am curious, how does "I AM" at Exodus 3:14 read in the original Hebrew?

  Joseph said:
  

  This I AM is never used again. If it is a name why was it not also used thousands of times like YHWH?

  I asked the same question about Michael. If Michael was a name of Jesus Christ, why was it used only twice in the New Testament.

  John 8:58 is not an example of further use as it does not say I AM the Being as the Greek does. The I AM was an introduction to the name YHWH given in the next verse and never used again.

  First of all, the importance of John 8:58 is not whether or not Jesus Christ is quoting Exodus 3:14, it is the fact that Jesus uses the present tense and says "Before Abraham came into existence, I am."

  Jesus did not use the past tense. Why is that?

  If all Jesus was saying was "Before Abraham came into existence, I was", then why didn't He use the past tense?

  Jesus was saying that throughout eternity HE IS!

  I would like to point out some things in the context of John Chapter 8:

  John 8:23: He said to them, "You are from beneath. I am from Above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.
  John 8:24: I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
  John 8:25: They said therefore to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.

  MY COMMENT: Notice, the Pharisees asked Jesus "Who are You?"

  John 8:28: Jesus therefore said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father taught Me, I say these things.

  John 8:44: You are of your Father, the Devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn't stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it.

  MY COMMENT: I find it very interesting that the Pharisees didn't try to stone Jesus after Jesus called them "Satan-Worshipers", instead, they wait to stone Him until....

  John 8:52: Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the Prophets; and You say, 'If a man keeps My Word, he will never taste of death.'
  John 8:53: Are You greater than our father, Abraham, who died? The Prophets died. Who do You make Yourself out to be?"

  MY COMMENT: Notice, the Pharisees once again ask Jesus "Who are You?" and "Are you greater than Abraham?"

  John 8:55: You have not known Him, but I know Him. If I said, 'I don't know Him,' I would be like you, a liar. But I know Him, and keep His Word.

  MY COMMENT: Jesus calls the Pharisees liars, but instead of trying to stone Jesus right then, they wait to stone Him until....

  John 8:56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day. He saw it, and was glad."
  John 8:57: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
  John 8:58: Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM."
  John 8:59: Therefore they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus was hidden, and went out of the Temple, having gone through the midst of them, and so passed by.

  MY COMMENT: In John 8:58 Jesus answered two of the Pharisees' questions -- 1. "Who are You?" and 2. "Have You seen Abraham?"

  The Pharisees didn't try to stone Jesus when He called them "Satan-Worshipers", and the Pharisees didn't try to stone Jesus when He called them "Liars" but yet, when Jesus makes the declaration "I AM", that is when the Pharisees immediately try to stone Jesus -- which I believe is obviously for BLASPHEMY.

  If all that Jesus was saying is that He existed before Abraham, I just can't see the Pharisees getting more upset about Jesus saying that He existed before Abraham than when Jesus called them "Satan-Worshipers" and "Liars" -- it makes no sense.

  I mean, if Jesus had simply stated "I have been", Jesus could have been saying that He was a created angel, or He could have been claiming to be someone who was resurrected from Abraham's time, and I don't think "Claiming to be an angel" or "Claiming to exist before Abraham" would have been a Stoning-Offense, would it, especially when calling the Pharisees "Satan-Worshipers" and "Liars" wasn't a Stoning-Offense?

  Check out the following Verses and you will see the reason why the Pharisees tried to stone Jesus on some different occasions:

  John 10:30: "I and the Father are One."
  John 10:31: Therefore Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
  John 10:32: Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
  John 10:33: The Jews answered Him, "We don't stone You for a good work, but for blasphemy: because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

  John 5:18: For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

  Joseph said:
  

  The Father is what the Supreme Being is called in scripture and the name YHWH belongs to Him. There is no such thing as a Son that is also true God or a Holy Spirit that is true God so YHWY does not apply to them.

  Once again, I ask you to show me where the Scriptures say that the Father is the Only One who can be called YHWH?

  All this has been discussed on this forum in depth and you have provided no evidence that the Father is not YHWH since this Father is the only true God not Jesus or Logos.

  Where did I EVER say that the Father is not YHWH? Of course the Father is YHWH, but so is the Son and the Holy Spirit.

  You claim that The Father is the Only True God to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit.

  Well, I tell you, as I have said before that Jesus Christ is the Only True Sovereign Ruler and Lord.

  Is that to the exclusion of the Father?

  Joseph said:
  

  But if you insist on splitting hairs like this then What is the real name of the Father?

  Which part of this discussion has been "splitting hairs"?

  The Personal Name of the Father is YHWH (best Translation is probably YAHWEH)

  What is the real name of the Son? Michael? Jesus?

  The Personal Name of the Son is YHWH (best Translation is probably YAHWEH) and also, from the time that He was born on Earth, YAHSHUA [Jesus].

  What is the name of the Holy Spirit?

  The Personal Name of the Holy Spirit is YHWH (best Translation is probably YAHWEH)
• 

  JosephMalik

  The Personal Name of the Father is YHWH (best Translation is probably YAHWEH)

  What is the real name of the Son? Michael? Jesus?

  The Personal Name of the Son is YHWH (best Translation is probably YAHWEH) and also, from the time that He was born on Earth, YAHSHUA [Jesus].

  What is the name of the Holy Spirit?

  The Personal Name of the Holy Spirit is YHWH (best Translation is probably YAHWEH)

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Which proves my point again, you do not have an answer. Just say anything that comes to your mind just like the WT does. Provide scriptural proof for such statements since you made them. I will say this; the trinity doctrine is not the truth and never was. Scripture taken out of context does not a truth make.

  Joseph
• 

  JosephMalik

  An angel in Revelation Chapter 22 is directly representing the Father and Jesus the same as if the Father and Jesus were actually there.

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Not true. You can not frame an argument based upon such a manufactured statement. One event was literal, a real bush, a real fire, real presence, real ground, the other was a vision and did not involve literal presence, buildings or scenes, only a real angel. The material was all in vision form. You have no case. Prove this point first, then we can continue.

  Joseph
• 

  JosephMalik

  Joseph, you make YHWH a liar!

  If you are correct on this, then it means the Supreme Being is a liar, as is shown in the following Scriptures:

  Isaiah 44:24: Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth (who is with Me?)

  Isaiah 43:7: everyone who is called by My Name, and whom I have created for My glory, whom I have formed, yes, whom I have made.

  Isaiah 45:11-12: Thus says Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel... I have made the Earth, and created man on it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the Heavens; and all their host have I commanded.

  Undisfellwoshipped,

  This is what I dislike about Trinitarians. They accuse others of lying when they are the ones that are doing the lying. As I have stated many times on this forum; God delegates authority and the angel in the burning bush is but one example. Not every single act of creation was performed/or delivered by God personally. Even the promised kingdom of God will be delivered to God when it is brought under submission by someone else.

  1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

  The heavens and the earth were created by Him (God) alone. That much we know. Much of the rest of creation was delegated to us and we do have scripture to identify at least who of these us. And that is the Logos of John 1:1-3. Verses of a general nature such as the ones you provide do not alter such facts. Such ignorance on the part of Trinitarians does make me the liar.

  Joseph
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph,

  I'm sorry if I upset you, however I am not and never will be sorry about speaking the truth.

  You said:
  

  Which proves my point again, you do not have an answer. Just say anything that comes to your mind just like the WT does. Provide scriptural proof for such statements since you made them.

  Joseph, in this very Thread, I already posted several Scriptures that show that Jesus Christ is YHWH, yet you completely ignored them, but I will go ahead and post them again (for the third time this Thread):

  The Pre-Human Name of Jesus Christ was YAHWEH:

  Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [YAHWEH], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.

  The Apostle Paul quoted Psalm 102:12 and 102:25 [a prayer to YAHWEH] and applied it directly to Jesus Christ.

  The Apostle Paul thus proclaimed that Jesus Christ is Yahweh, and that Jesus is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth.

  Mark 1:1: The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
  Mark 1:2: As it is written in the Prophets, "Behold, I send My messenger before your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.
  Mark 1:3: The voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make ready the way of the Lord! [YAHWEH] Make His paths straight!'"
  Mark 1:4: John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching the baptism of repentance for forgiveness of sins.

  Mark 1:7: He preached, saying, "After me comes He who is Mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and loosen.
  Mark 1:8: I baptized you in water, but He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit."
  Mark 1:9: It happened in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

  Who did John the Baptist prepare the way for? Yahweh according to the Old Testament -- Jesus according to the New Testament!

  Romans 10:9: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
  Romans 10:10: For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
  Romans 10:11: For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."
  Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him.
  Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord [YAHWEH] will be saved."

  1st Corinthians 1:2: to the congregation of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours

  The Apostle Paul quoted a Verse that says "call on the Name of Yahweh" and applied it to Jesus Christ.

  I will say this; the trinity doctrine is not the truth and never was.

  Well, I completely disagree with that statement, but I respect your right to believe whatever you want.

  Scripture taken out of context does not a truth make.

  I do completely agree with that, and it applies to you also.

  Your opinions and comments do not a truth make either.

  You said:
  

  Not true. You can not frame an argument based upon such a manufactured statement. One event was literal, a real bush, a real fire, real presence, real ground, the other was a vision and did not involve literal presence, buildings or scenes, only a real angel. The material was all in vision form. You have no case. Prove this point first, then we can continue.

  What is your point? Are you saying that, in a vision it is NOT okay to worship angels who are speaking for the Supreme Being, but it IS okay to worship angels when it is not in a vision?

  Please show me the Scriptures that support that view.

  You said:
  

  This is what I dislike about Trinitarians. They accuse others of lying when they are the ones that are doing the lying.

  I guess you're saying that I'm a liar because I decide to believe what Yahweh says in the Scriptures, instead of what you say?

  Yes, I guess I must be a liar because I actually believe Yahweh when He says that HE created all things ALONE -- BY HIMSELF. (Isaiah 44:24)

  Yahweh says that HE created humans ALONE! (Isaiah 43:7, Isaiah 45:11-12, Nehemiah 9:6, Revelation 4:11)

  The Scriptures say that Jesus Christ created ALL THINGS, including Heaven and Earth and humans. (Hebrews 1:10, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:3)

  If Jesus Christ is not Yahweh, as you claim, then Yahweh lied when He said that He created humans ALONE.

  You said:
  

  As I have stated many times on this forum; God delegates authority and the angel in the burning bush is but one example.

  Can you prove using the Scriptures that the Messenger [Angel] in Exodus Chapter 3 is not the Supreme Being?

  You said:
  

  Not every single act of creation was performed/or delivered by God personally.

  I have already showed, in the Scriptures above, that that statement is completely false.

  You said:
  

  Even the promised kingdom of God will be delivered to God when it is brought under submission by someone else.

  1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

  I already posted several Scriptures in this Thread about this, which show that the Kingdom that the Son delivers up must be the Mediatorial Kingdom of Christ, which will no longer be needed once every "Saint" [Holy One] has been returned to perfection.

  I will post the Scriptures (and my comments) again here:

  When Jesus "delivers up the Kingdom to God the Father", it must mean Jesus Christ "delivers up" His Mediatorial Kingdom (which will no longer be needed once everyone has been made sinless), or else it would CONTRADICT other Scriptures, which I will post here:

  Luke 1:31: Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and will call His Name 'Jesus.'
  Luke 1:32: He will be Great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father, David,
  Luke 1:33: and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end to His Kingdom."

  Isaiah 9:7: Of the increase of His Government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on His Kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this.

  Daniel 7:14: There was given Him dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

  2nd Peter 1:11: For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

  Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

  You said:
  

  The heavens and the earth were created by Him (God) alone. That much we know.

  Why do you believe Yahweh when He says He created the Heavens and the Earth ALONE (Isaiah 44:24), but you absolutely DO NOT believe Yahweh when He says He created humans ALONE? (Isaiah 45:11-12, Nehemiah 9:6)

  It seems to me that you are picking and choosing which of Yahweh's statements to believe in order to fit in with your pre-conceived beliefs.

  You said:
  

  Much of the rest of creation was delegated to us and we do have scripture to identify at least who of these us. And that is the Logos of John 1:1-3.

  I have already posted information and Scriptures about this several times in this Thread alone.

  You said:
  

  Verses of a general nature such as the ones you provide do not alter such facts. Such ignorance on the part of Trinitarians does make me the liar.

  Once again, you call me ignorant because I actually believe what the Scriptures say.

  So, who decides which Scriptures are "of a general nature"?

  And, so you are saying that when Scriptures are "of a general nature", they cannot be trusted as truth?

  Also, you never did answer my question, which is the MOST IMPORTANT question I have asked you:

  What do you believe that the defining attributes, qualities, and characteristics of the Supreme Being are, which NO created being has?

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 2 February 2003 2:5:29