Atheists/Agnostics/Prayer

by patio34 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • JanH
    JanH

    Hello Emyrose,

    Although I see your point about how too many things left unanswered can lead to serious doubts about GOD. Yet, isn't that where faith comes in?

    That seems to be the case, yes. And I will commend you for your honesty in dealing with these issues.

    The reference to "faith" is in many ways the last line of defence for the true believer. These defence lines goes through many stages from the cocksure assertions that their religious beliefs is proven beyond doubt, so common among JWs and other fundamentalists, all the way down to saying "we gotta have faith."

    Rhetorically, a reference to "faith" finds resonnance with most believers. But what, exactly, is "faith"? In Greek, and indeed many modern languages, there is no distinction between "belief" and "faith." English has retained this archaic word for belief, and today it is reserved for religious beliefs. So, in effect saying that "you need faith" is equivalent to saying "you need to believe." This begs the question: why, pray tell, do people need belief? What makes faith a credible or desirable quality? Does this mean that anything and everything should be believed, or is this limited to some ideas only?

    I think most people, even the most ardently religious, will agree that there are forms of belief that are not desirable. Christians will say that faith in Allah or Vishnu, or ancient deities like Zevs, Odin or Ba'al, is not only undesirable but outright evil. And in the same way, believers in Allah may argue that faith in the Christian God is highly undesirable. And most people today will agree that belief in the tenets of certain totalitarian philosophies, like Nazism, is extremely undesirable and evil.

    So what makes faith in God, or even the particular God of Christuianity, a positive quality? By answering "you need to have faith" or along such lines, you simply assert that the belief is correct, without any supporting arguments whatsoever. You could just as well support belief in Ba'al, Nazism or invisible green unicorns, using the same slogan.

    Why does the word "faith" have such a good sound in the western hemisphere? Obviously, because through centuries of Christian propaganda, this word has been reverred as the highest of virtues.

    When Christianity was new, this new religion met with opposition and skepticism. Claiming that an executed criminal had been resurrected and was indeed Divine, was obviously beyond what many would accept. While we should not exeggarate the skepitcal climate of the day, it is not a stretch to assume that many people asked the Christians for some evidence supporting this extraordinary claim. Christians had no such things. So, as part of their preaching, they argued that being skeptical, being a doubter, was inheritently sinfull, and that faith -- indeed, blind faith -- was the noblest of virtues.

    So, what happened was that a religion made gullability the highest of virtues. And this continues to this day. Only, this obvious fact is hidden behind the word "faith."

    One amazing example of how doubt was villified, we find in the story about Thomas the doubter. Apparently alone among the disciplies, Thomas proclaimed that he needed more than the claims of more or less hysterical believers to accept this extraordinary claim. He would, he proclaimed, believe if he received evidence. Would not any sane person have reacted in the same way? And indeed, in this story, Jesus accepts the challenge, and proves to Thomas's satisfaction that he is the resurrected Christ. Alas, here we find Jesus (John 20:29) ruining the whole store by making an outragously stupid conclusion: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

    In other words, the Jesus of John blessed blind superstitious faith and repudiated sound skepticism.

    No doubt this literary product was created as an attempt to answer those who did not accept these supernatural claims, and especially to discourage any form of critical thinking among Christians.

    And indeed, this rejection of rational thinking has been a hallmark of Christianity ever since. Luckily, or we would certainly not have anything resembling civilization today, the stranglehold of faith over reason has been fought back and greatly reduced.

    Yet, we still hear people assert that "we must have faith."

    - Jan
    --
    "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate." - Occam

  • stephenw20
    stephenw20

    Jan<
    I can appreciate your position,but it does fly in the face of history

    many things defy logic.........like the ones I mentioned already

    "Thus, if you believe something illogical, the chance of this being a valid perspective in any sense of the word is zilch."

    I see the earth spinning pretty damn unreasonable..........but I have little choice but to believe in it.

    I wish I could fly like a bird,but damn I cant..but planes can.......
    gravity ....I see no logic

    Babys being born, from two people getting it on.......quite illogical, but quite possible........

    I dont know why Martin Luther King , thought it would be good to defy the white rules.since it defied the current logic....but he did

    I am so glad, Wozniack,Jobs & Gates, ignored the logical perspective ...or I couldn't respond to you........

    I 'll keep on looking down this illogical street I'm on... and if I see the sun not come up... I 'll admit... I was wrong.

    take care Jan......

  • JanH
    JanH
    many things defy logic.........like the ones I mentioned already

    "Thus, if you believe something illogical, the chance of this being a valid perspective in any sense of the word is zilch."

    I see the earth spinning pretty damn unreasonable


    Stephen,

    What you say above demonstrates you confuse logic and intuition. In reality, these are opposites. Intuition stems, in many ways, from prejudices. Logic, on the other hand, follows strict, mathematical rules that can be proved to be correct beyond any doubt.

    You use "logic" in the common-sensical meaning you can often hear in informal chat, like saying "oh, that sounds logical" when you simply mean it passed a preliminary sanity check. This has nothing to do with logic.

    What you, or others, consider "unreasonable" from the top of your head has nothing to do with it being contrary to logic. From what correct premises can you construct a logical argument leading to the conclusion that the earth does not spin?

    Logic is never wrong. A logical argument can be valid, yet unsound, because the premises offered in the argument was false to begin with. But if premises for a logical (deductive) argument are correct, and the argument itself is valid, then the conclusion following must necessarily be correct. To believe anything different is a total absurdity.

    - Jan
    --
    "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate." - Occam

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Jan,

    I'm sure you are aware that "logic" is not a monolithic singular set of mathematical precepts. Eastern logic and contemporary western logic are not identical. Which set of axioms do you expouse as universal?

    carmel

  • stephenw20
    stephenw20

    "But if premises for a logical (deductive) argument are correct, "

    Based on your perspective ...anything can be correct.........or not as the case may be.....

    things may be true, without any truth......

    S

  • stephenw20
    stephenw20

    jan, I almost forgot

    we are human.......

    but we do have something inside of us called spirit..........so is it not possible to have more than one perspective?

    or is that illogical?

    S

  • JanH
    JanH

    Carmel,

    I'm sure you are aware that "logic" is not a monolithic singular set of mathematical precepts. Eastern logic and contemporary western logic are not identical. Which set of axioms do you expouse as universal?


    Please tell me exactly where "eastern logic" contradicts "western logic". Your use of the word "axioms" above suggests you don't really understand what this is about.

    It is a fact of history that formal discursive thought developed in the west, more specifically in Greece. This was also the origin of formal logic. While many of the principles are pretty commonsensical, this did not happen anywhere else (many other interesting developments happened in e.g. India and China).

    Logic is, like other parts of mathematics, discovered, not invented. The notation and expression of both are inventions, but the underlying aspects clearly reflect what we can somewhat poetically call the real fabric of the universe.

    stephen,

    "But if premises for a logical (deductive) argument are correct, "

    Based on your perspective ...anything can be correct.........or not as the case may be.....

    things may be true, without any truth......


    I would politely suggest you get at least the tiniest clue about this subject before you continue to post utter nonsense.

    we are human.......

    but we do have something inside of us called spirit.


    If I had any reason to believe that you had any ability to do so, I would ask you to define "spirit."

    If you mean some ghost-like soul/spirit that means that a person and his or her thoughts would survive the death of the body, I would strongly disagree.

    - Jan
    --
    "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate." - Occam

  • Sunchild
    Sunchild

    As I read through all of this, I wonder, "Does it matter?" There might be a supernatural personage somewhere in the universe that watches over all of us... and there might not be. Prayer might simply be a conversation with another part of your own psyche... and it might not be. I don't know, and to me, it doesn't really matter.

    All I know for certain is that saying a prayer to the Goddess (my deity of choice) makes me feel better, and life seems to make a little more sense. No, I don't expect or even ask for Her to solve all of my problems, but... my conversations with Her have never caused me any harm, and they often help me find a strength I never knew I had.

    I don't really care what others believe as long as they don't bother me with it, but I've found something that feels right to me. As long as your beliefs enhance your reality instead of simply blinding you to it, what difference does it make?

    *Rochelle.

    ---------
    "Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
    -- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    Hmm. I'd just like to say just a few things..

    I think an important question we have to ask ourselves is ultimately, are we really looking for truth? If so, we have to consider both the "internal" and "external". If you want to believe, well, whatever you want to believe, that's something else.

    Do we need to prove it to others? Do we have a knee-jerk reaction to those who try to prove it to us? I personally take it all in, consider it, but I don't feel that I have to react to it or make it personal in any way. It's just thoughts, and not even your own I might add. Excuse me for citing scripture, but I think there's some truth to the idea that peace is a fruitage of the spirit, whatever that statement may mean to you. There are "spiritual persons" out there who can hear all the arguments, understand them for what they are and it doesn't disturb them in the least, I think that kind of mind state is worth seeking, whatever your beliefs.

  • Flowerpetal
    Flowerpetal

    Intro:

    Excuse me for citing scripture, but I think there's some truth to the idea that peace is a fruitage of the spirit, whatever that statement may mean to you. There are "spiritual persons" out there who can hear all the arguments, understand them for what they are and it doesn't disturb them in the least, I think that kind of mind state is worth seeking, whatever your beliefs.

    Amen and Amen!

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