What does the Catholic church think of JW?

by Halcon 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Earnest

    You are correct that geographical proximity, by itself, does not prove or disprove kinship unless the genealogical links are established. However, when we look carefully at the geographical movements of Pope Benedict XVI’s maternal ancestors, it becomes evident that they do not align with Stefanie Brzakovic's account.

    Pope Benedict’s maternal line — the Riegers, Reisses, Peintners, and Taubers — is well documented. His mother, Maria Peintner Rieger, was born in Oberaudorf, in southern Bavaria, near the Austrian border. Her father, Isidor Rieger, was born in Welden, near Augsburg in Bavaria, and later moved south toward the Chiemsee area (Rimsting), remaining firmly within Bavarian territory. Her mother, Maria Tauber-Peintner, was born in Raas (Naz-Sciaves) in South Tyrol, part of the Austrian Empire at the time (now Italy), a German-speaking region closely connected to Bavaria both culturally and linguistically.

    The Peintner side (Anton Peter Peintner and Elisabeth Maria Tauber) lived in small German-speaking towns such as Aicha, Mühlbach, and Natz (all in Tyrol). They later moved into Bavaria (Rimsting) by the late 19th century.
    The Rieger and Reiss sides remained rooted in Welden and Günzburg in Bavaria for several generations.

    Thus, their pattern of movement shows:

    • A concentration in Welden–Günzburg (Bavaria) for the Rieger and Reiss lines.
    • South Tyrol origins (Aicha, Natz, Raas) for the Peintner and Tauber lines, who eventually moved into Rimsting in Bavaria.
    • Movement is mostly northward or westward from Tyrol into Bavaria, not toward the Weilheim area.

    Now, Stefanie Brzakovic claimed that her family lived in Weilheim in Oberbayern, about 50 kilometers west of Oberaudorf, and that they often “hung out” with the Ratzinger family.
    However, this is geographically unlikely for several reasons:

    • The Ratzinger family lived in Tittmoning, Aschau am Inn, and later Traunstein, all in southeastern Bavaria, much closer to the Austrian border, not near Weilheim.
    • Weilheim is located west of Munich, while Tittmoning, Aschau, and Traunstein are east of Munich — on opposite sides of Upper Bavaria.
    • In the early 20th century, with limited transportation and strong local social structures, regular family interactions over such distances (about 100 km) were rare unless absolutely necessary.

    Moreover, there is no documented evidence that any branch of the Rieger, Peintner, Reiss, or Tauber families ever lived in or near Weilheim. Their movements were mostly between Tyrol and southeastern Bavaria, not across Upper Bavaria.

    Thus:

    • Geographically, the Pope’s maternal family stayed in a southeastern corridor (Raas → Rimsting → Oberaudorf → Tittmoning/Traunstein).
    • The Brzakovic/Blabst family claim about living in Weilheim is disconnected from the Ratzinger family’s real geographical history.
    • No migration patterns, no baptismal or civil records, and no family testimonies link the Ratzinger maternal relatives to Weilheim.

    In short, when we map out the real historical movements, Stefanie Brzakovic’s claim does not fit the known facts of where the Pope’s maternal ancestors lived and moved. The discrepancy further undermines the credibility of her account.

    Nevertheless, in this case, the issue is not simply the geography, but the complete absence of any documented genealogical connection between Stefanie Blabst (later Brzakovic) and the Ratzinger or Peintner family lines. Pope Benedict XVI’s maternal ancestry is well preserved and thoroughly documented, spanning multiple generations. His mother's side—the Riegers, Reisses, Peintners, and Taubers—were firmly Bavarian and Tyrolean German-speaking families, with no evidence of South Slavic or Moravian branches entering the line in the last several generations.

    There are also some factual corrections that must be made to the family details you mentioned. For example, Maria Tauber-Peintner, was born in Raas, in South Tyrol, which was at that time part of the Austrian Empire. The Peintners and Taubers were established German-speaking families from Tyrol, not Moravia.

    Moreover, the claim that Elisabeth (Betty) Tauber was born in Mährisch-Weißkirchen (today Hranice, Czech Republic) is not substantiated by the primary genealogical sources. In fact, Elisabeth Maria Tauber was born in Natz (Naz-Sciaves) in Tyrol in 1832, as shown by the baptismal and civil records. Therefore, there is no direct Moravian ancestry influencing Joseph Ratzinger’s immediate family.

    The point about Josefina Knopfelmacher’s nickname being "Peppi" is interesting from a human perspective but does not support the claim about Joseph Ratzinger himself. Josefina Knopfelmacher (1819–1886), a great-great-grandmother figure, would have had little to no direct influence on the everyday speech habits or nicknames used by Bavarian children in the 1920s and 30s. Nicknames arise organically in the living culture of a place and time, not from ancestral memory two or three generations removed. In rural Bavaria, the affectionate form for Joseph was, and remains, "Sepp" or "Sepperl," as contemporaneous witnesses, including Pope Benedict’s own cousin Erika Kopper, consistently attest. "Pepi" is recognized primarily as an Austrian or Viennese diminutive, and would have been highly unusual among children in Traunstein or Tittmoning at that time.

    In addition, the serious genealogical problem remains: Isidor Rieger, Pope Benedict’s grandfather, was an only child, and the maternal lineage of Maria Tauber-Peintner is equally well documented without any unexplained branches. Without a shared great-grandparent, the alleged "second cousin" relationship simply cannot be true. Stefanie Blabst’s maternal line (from Katharina Berger) remains unconnected to any branch of the Pope’s known family tree.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    aqwsed12345 : Stefanie Blabst’s maternal line (from Katharina Berger) remains unconnected to any branch of the Pope’s known family tree.

    At present we know nothing about Stefanie Blabst’s maternal line (from Katharina Berger), so until we do there is no reason not to accept her word on the connection.

    I do agree that the Ratzingers did not live as near to the Bergers as she suggests. But I am more inclined to think that her memory of distances in her childhood is failing with age than that she is concocting the whole story.

    While I found the evidence that Betty (Elizabeth Maria) Tauber was born in Moravia to be quite convincing, with the Tauber family being there for several generations, I now agree she was born in Natz-Schabs, South Tyrol, possibly in Raas where her daughter was born. The source I relied on for this information seems a bit dubious in light of your post.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    so until we do there is no reason not to accept her word on the connection.

    That’s not how burden of proof works.

    I hope for your sake that you don’t get any emails from a Nigerian prince.

    When researching genealogy, you have to be cautious even accepting that a person with a known family name is actually a correct match, let alone assuming that someone with no matching family names is related based only on an anecdote.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    In the unverifiable anecdote, it is claimed the Pope said "you are doing the work that we should be doing" (a statement that would be entirely uncharacteristic of Ratzinger). Note the similar tone in JW publications offering the same types of unverifiable anecdotes:

    The Watchtower, 15 June 1993, page 26:

    Upon learning the purpose of their visit, the priest invited them in, and they had a fine discussion. The priest then said: “I envy you but not in a bad way. We should be doing the work that you are doing. It’s too bad that the Orthodox Church is a sleeping giant”!

    The Watchtower, 1 January 1997, page 12 (recycled from Awake!, 8 February 1982, page 10 below, and also recycled in The Watchtower, May 2016, page 12):

    WHILE preaching from house to house, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses met a Pentecostal lady who commented, ‘We have holy spirit, but you are the ones doing the work.’

    Awake!, 8 February 1982, page 10:

    A pastor of a Pentecostal church once said to a Witness: “It makes me cry when I think that we have God’s spirit, but you people are doing the work!”
    So even if the claim of being a first cousin (later revised to second cousin) were true (though it remains unverified and implausible given the absence of any Bergers in Ratzinger's family tree) and there was a phone call (which also remains unverified), it's still possible that the lady (who supposedly only reported the phone call 4 months later) mixed the details of the conversation with things she read in JW literature.
  • NotFormer
    NotFormer

    'We have holy spirit, but you are the ones doing the work.’

    No Pentecostal would have said that*. It wouldn't have hurt the WT denial of the Trinity doctrine to accurately quote a purported conversation.

    *The first clause, that is

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    Jeffro : it remains unverified and implausible given the absence of any Bergers in Ratzinger's family tree

    That is not how maiden names work. As I said above, at present we know nothing about Stefanie Blabst’s maternal line (from Katharina Berger). Her mother's maiden name would not have been Berger, so the absence of Bergers in Ratzinger's family tree is irrelevant to the discussion.


  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Earnest:

    Brzakovic's maiden name was Berger. It is unlikely that her mother's maiden name was Berger.

    🙄 Try to keep up. Brzakovic’s maiden name was Blabst. Her mother’s maiden name was Berger. 🤦‍♂️

    Bored now. It’s tedious that people need details spoon fed to them. Get back to me when you have evidence that Katharina’s mother was a Rieger or Peintner by birth (i.e., the sister of Maria’s father or mother).

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    I see that Earnest changed their ‘That is not how maiden names work’ post after I pointed out their error about Brzakovic’s maiden name. 😒 Perhaps I should have waited until after the edit window ended.

    Fact remains that until there is evidence, there is no reason to accept the unverified anecdote.

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