What does the Catholic church think of JW?

by Halcon 71 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The original article said she was a “cousin” of the pope, it didn’t say “first cousin”, to be accurate. For many people the additional clarity in the the second interview in 2008 that she was a “second cousin”, specifying that her mother was the pope’s cousin, along with dates, locations, key childhood experiences, and mention of another living relative in Australia, might tend to corroborate - but you think it does the opposite?

    As I already said, maybe we can’t prove it’s true (although your arguments against are looking increasingly desperate) but it’s certainly likely enough to be true to be relevant to the conversation, which is all I claimed. And the original statement you put out from ChatGPT and claimed to have verified is clearly false when you said: There is no widely available documentation or media coverage to verify this story.” You’ve gone from arguing there was none, to arguing there was only one, to arguing you don’t believe any of the sources anyway - quite a distance, and somewhat “tedious”, to use your own word.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Sea Breeze

    Thank you for your thoughtful and heartfelt response. I truly appreciate your desire to uphold Christ as the ultimate source of truth — on that point, we are in complete agreement. Jesus Christ is the Truth, the Way, and the Life (John 14:6), and no human institution, apart from Him, possesses truth by its own merit. However, from a Catholic understanding, Christ did not leave us orphans; He established His Church as a living, visible body through which His truth would continue to be taught and safeguarded until the end of time (cf. Matthew 16:18-19; 28:19-20; 1 Timothy 3:15). The Church is not a rival to Christ’s truth, but rather His chosen instrument for making that truth accessible to the world. When Catholics say the "fullness of truth" is found in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, we mean that the Church, by Christ’s will and the Spirit’s guidance, faithfully preserves and teaches everything necessary for salvation — not that it replaces Christ, but that it serves Him. I believe that where we both agree — on Christ as the one and only source of truth and salvation — is a beautiful and essential starting point for any sincere discussion between believers. You are absolutely right that Jesus alone is the Truth (John 14:6). The Catholic Church fully affirms this. When I spoke of the "fullness of truth" being found in the Catholic Church, it was not in contradiction to Christ being the Truth, but rather an expression of the Church's understanding that Christ, who is the Truth, established a visible community — a Church — to preserve and proclaim His truth to all nations until the end of time (Matthew 28:19–20; 1 Timothy 3:15).

    I absolutely understand your sensitivity toward claims about "having the truth," especially given your experience with the Watchtower. It is tragic how many souls have been wounded by movements that twist the Gospel into a system of fear and false promises. Catholicism, however, is not parallel to the Watchtower. It does not claim new prophecies; it does not continually revise its dogma; and it never teaches that human leaders can "improve" upon Christ’s revelation. Its role is to guard the deposit of faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3) and to hand it on faithfully through the centuries under the Spirit’s protection. The Catholic claim is not that an institution or a human hierarchy replaces Christ, but rather that Christ Himself continues to work through His Body, the Church, which He founded, animated by the Holy Spirit. In Catholic theology, the Church is not merely a human organization; she is, mysteriously, the extension of Christ’s presence in the world, safeguarding the Gospel in its entirety. Therefore, saying that the fullness of truth subsists in the Catholic Church is ultimately a confession about Christ's fidelity to His promises — not a boast about human achievement.

    Regarding the painful history you mentioned, particularly concerning the Inquisition, I understand the strong emotions these topics evoke. History must be faced honestly, without defensiveness but also without distortion. It’s important to distinguish between the sanctity of the Church as Christ’s body and the sins committed by individuals within it. No faithful Catholic denies that grievous wrongs were committed in the name of Christ at different times, including during certain phases of the Inquisition. Yet much of what is popularly said about "50 million deaths" or "600 years of terror" comes not from sober historical scholarship, but from hostile sources — particularly from Reformation-era polemicists and later Enlightenment critics — who vastly exaggerated and distorted events to discredit the Church. Serious historians today, Catholic and secular alike, recognize that while the Inquisition involved real injustices, the numbers and scope often cited are grossly inflated and need to be seen in their proper context. So the narrative that "50 million" people were systematically murdered under 19 consecutive popes during the Inquisition is, respectfully, historically inaccurate. Modern secular and Protestant historians, even very critical ones, generally recognize that the figures associated with the medieval Inquisition are far, far lower — estimates for the Spanish Inquisition, for example, range between 3,000 to 5,000 executions over several centuries, tragic indeed but not a genocide by any historical standard.

    The official ecclesiastical procedure against heretics indeed had its excesses, but events from hundreds of years ago should not be judged by today's standards. To understand this, let's look at the formation of the Inquisition. The heretics of old (Cathars, Waldensians, Bogomils, Hussites) were far from being pious religious dreamers. They burned down churches, cities, killed people, and lived or propagated abnormal civil and sexual lives. The state had to act against these actions. When the state began using the accusation of heresy for political purges, the Church intervened and did not allow the state to arbitrarily decide who was a heretic and who was not. Thus, the Inquisition saved many people's lives, but history books do not write a word about this.

    Hence the perception of the Inquisition's scale and methods is unfair. Many have been led to believe that the Inquisition massively and easily burned people at the stake, while subjecting them to terrible torture. It is true that torture was used in certain cases, but this was due to the spirit of the times, and the Church practiced mercy here too: The inquisitorial court used one kind of torture, while the secular courts' torture instruments were only limited by imagination. It's not without reason that many caught criminals invented a religious element in court ("the voices said"; "God messaged") so that their cases would be transferred from the secular to the inquisitorial court, where they could hope for a milder punishment. Thus, the majority of inquisitorial trials were ordinary criminal proceedings, and not "dramatic collisions of conscience and power." Death sentences were only issued in severe and common-law cases. The number of these was not more than two or three individuals per year. The severity of punishments is also relative. Indeed, the punishments were harsh. But the medieval person could endure them. In less softened peoples today, the justice system still uses more cutting methods.

    True religious judgments were rare, and only very significant or particularly violent heretics were executed (e.g., Jan Hus). However, two factors come into play here. In the Middle Ages, God was considered the King of kings. Anyone who offended the king was sentenced to death for treason. Teaching heretical errors about God or falsifying His word was thought in the past to offend the King of kings, thus heretics were also sentenced to death. But remember, in the Middle Ages, Christianity was the state ideology, the main force of social cohesion. Attacks against it violated societal interests. Open critics of the state ideology were always punished. It's no different today: And it's not necessary to think only of the mass executions of the French Revolution, the Nazi concentration camps, or the communist gulags. Just observe the activities of national security agencies. In many Western countries, if someone is a mover of a movement considered "heresy" by the establishment, then the state power monitors and possibly shuts it down. Not without reason. Modern freedom of speech is not as straightforward as many believe. In many European countries, openly or even covertly offending certain nationalities or deviations is punished with imprisonment. The essence doesn't differ much from the persecution of heretics, and the methods are not far from those of the Inquisition.

    Spain is an exception. Not only because the Inquisition operated most harshly there, but because there, the Inquisition was primarily in the hands of the state, not the church. This led to many abuses and mercies, but fundamentally, there was a reason for it. Spain was full of seemingly converted Moors who pretended to be Christians but were actually spying and trying to bring Europe under the crescent. These people were indeed sought out by all means. However, it's evident that the Inquisition also served a counter-intelligence function here. Its name reflected this: Sanctum Officium Inquisitionis, the Holy Office of Investigation.

    So, the Inquisition had many dark sides, but these were not the consequences of the institution itself, but of human fallibility. It stands that the sanctity of the Church is not diminished if some of its members commit sins, because such scandals are unavoidable. If the inquisitors operated conscientiously, they cannot be faulted, for with their rigor, they protected the common people from common-law, religious criminals. There were saints among them.

    Many believe that "the Catholic Church burned at the stake those of different faiths." First of all, it was not simply "people of different faiths" who were burned, but rather the incorrigible rebels and deliberate religious subversives. Second, and most importantly, it was not the Church that burned them. The Church itself never burned anyone, either at the stake or otherwise. Death by burning is a terrible remnant of pagan Germanic law, which unfortunately, was adopted and maintained by virtually every state in the Middle Ages; and importantly, it was a state punishment, not an ecclesiastical one. Just because the state was so intertwined with the Church at the time and considered religious crimes as also state crimes: qualified as subversion and rebellion, hence sometimes the state power itself pursued the perpetrators of religious crimes with its often brutal means, including torture and burning at the stake. In determining the religious crime, ecclesiastical factors were of course consulted, and thus mixed courts were established, such as the Inquisition. The ecclesiastical factors unfortunately erred in often being too readily defenders of state excesses and not sufficiently opposing the cruel and often unjust methods of torture and punishment. In most cases, however, they did take action and it was the Church itself that repeatedly and vehemently spoke out against these barbaric customs. In distributing death by burning, everyone was equally guilty at the time: individuals, society, the people, cities, and states, not least the heresies themselves, which also extensively used torture and other forms of torment against Catholics.

    Many also believe that "the Inquisition led hundreds of thousands to a horrendous death." However, the "hundreds and hundreds of thousands" is a mild exaggeration invented by the Spanish apostate Llorente and circulated by numerous fanatical anti-Catholic novelists. According to serious calculations, the number of victims of the Inquisition over 700 years falls well short of even the number of martyrs and those tortured during the English persecution of Catholics. Why do those who so readily mention the Inquisition remain silent about the much bloodier persecutions of Catholics in non-Catholic areas?

    Moreover, the Inquisition itself was only partly an ecclesiastical institution, as we have already explained. It should also be added that the best-performing Spanish Inquisition was a state institution, established to monitor and neutralize the traitorous dealings of Arabs who remained in Spain after the long Moorish occupation and had ostensibly converted to Christianity, as well as the Jews who secretly allied with them. To this end, the judges of the Spanish Inquisition always first sought to determine whether the suspected Arabs and Jews could legitimately claim their baptismal certificates, that is, whether they were indeed living a Christian life or merely using baptism as a cover. This led to a unique mixing of religious and civil elements in the Spanish Inquisition. The Church cannot be held so responsible for the Spanish Inquisition to the extent that, on the contrary, it was the Roman Curia that protested against the actions of the Spanish Inquisition in many cases, seeing them as an unwarranted interference by the Spanish crown in ecclesiastical legal matters.

    But what does the world know about this! The "Spanish Inquisition" is a hobbyhorse on which the enemies of the Church have happily ridden for a hundred years. Experts can refute the horror stories circulating about it a hundred times, but for some people, what matters is not whether something is true, but whether it can be used as a trump card against the Catholic Church. In 1590, Antonio Pérez, the private secretary of Philip II, fled to France and then to Germany due to murder and treason charges. While there, he wrote a detailed report for the Protestants about Spain's deeds. But in revenge, he added two or more zeros to every number, thus inflating the number of victims to several million over a hundred years. The countries of William of Orange and Elizabeth I enthusiastically spread these writings that discredited the Spanish, which became known as La Leyenda Negra - The Black Legend. This, in turn, spread in the public consciousness through Anglo-Saxon historiography and has become indelibly embedded. Since then, no one has ever done so much harm to their own country.

    Furthermore, while there were undeniable abuses (and the Church has frankly acknowledged and repented of these failings), it is also true that many aspects of the Inquisition were actually intended to ensure fairer trials compared to secular courts of the time, which often meted out far harsher and less regulated punishments. The Church herself has acknowledged and repented for these sins, especially under recent popes like St. John Paul II, who called Catholics to confess past failures and seek reconciliation. None of this is meant to excuse real sins committed by individuals in the name of the Church. As Catholics, we mourn those failures deeply, recognizing that the Church is a divine institution carried in fragile, sinful human vessels. Yet these failures do not invalidate the Church’s divine foundation, any more than Judas' betrayal invalidated Christ's mission. If we were to judge the validity of a community purely by the sins of its members or leaders, no Christian group could stand — not the early Church, not Protestant bodies, not any of us.

    You mention supporting the "catholic" (universal) church but not the "Papal Church." I would simply encourage reflection on this: Christ prayed for His followers to be one (John 17:21), not fractured into countless independent groups each claiming to represent His teaching. The visible unity of the Church, maintained through apostolic succession and the Petrine ministry, is not a man-made invention but a divine safeguard against the endless division that plagues Christianity today. The pope, as bishop of Rome and successor of Peter, serves not as an emperor, but as a visible sign of unity and servant of the servants of God. His role is not to replace Christ’s headship but to bear witness to it and to preserve the communion that Christ Himself willed for His people.

    You mentioned that you and others, once trapped in the errors of the Watchtower, were rescued by the relentless mercy of Christ. For that, I give heartfelt thanks to God. Truly, salvation is the work of Christ, not the work of men. Yet if Christ willed to entrust His Gospel to human witnesses, through the apostles and their successors, then it must also be that He would safeguard that witness through the Holy Spirit, even amid human frailty. That is the Catholic conviction: that the Church’s endurance across centuries, despite corruption, persecution, and weakness, is a sign not of human glory but of divine faithfulness. I truly respect your journey out of the darkness of the Watchtower and into the light of Christ. It is a profound testimony to God’s grace. My hope is simply that, in continuing to seek the fullness of the truth found in Christ, one might recognize that Christ continues to work through His Church — wounded though her members may be — and that He invites all believers not just to an invisible, subjective unity, but to the visible, historical communion He founded.

    Finally, I agree with you entirely that the term "catholic" in its original sense — universal — belongs to all true Christians. The Catholic Church, however, believes that this universality is visibly manifest in her sacramental life, apostolic succession, and unity of faith. It is not a matter of triumphalism but of deep humility, recognizing that whatever good we have is a gift received, not something earned. I say all of this not to argue, but out of fraternal charity and the desire for deeper understanding.

    Thank you again for your sincerity. I hope you will receive this response in the same spirit of charity and truthfulness in which you offered yours. I am grateful for every conversation that brings us closer to the one Lord we both seek to love and serve with all our hearts.

    Pax Christi.

    Som resources you may find useful:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhlAqklH0do

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    The original article said she was a “cousin” of the pope, it didn’t say “first cousin”, to be accurate.


  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    And the original statement you put out from ChatGPT and claimed to have verified is clearly false when you said: There is no widely available documentation or media coverage to verify this story.”

    You’re still completely wrong. The second report simply repeats claims in the first that remain unverified. Repeating a claim isn’t verification. It’s really sad that you don’t understand that.

    Additionally, the Austrian article was published after the one in Il Giornale and incorrectly misrepresents editorial comments about dates, near-drowning etc, from Il Giornale as quotes from Brzakovic.

    I have consistently and correctly stated that all sources talking about it, and there aren’t many, trace back to the story she told in 2005.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Okay you got me, it said first cousin! See I can admit when I’m wrong. You could try it. 😉

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Kaleb yes I can see you had no JW connection at the time so that wasn’t the reason the priest told the story. I’m just wondering, if there was no particular connection to JWs, then the fact the priest thought it was interesting and/or amusing to relate the story to a general audience - it perhaps indicates the priest gave some more thought or mental space to JWs than his quip in the story itself suggested.

    In other news, I think it’s a bit hasty to say Catholics have been nicer to JWs than JWs are to Catholics when in Canada, for example, the Catholic Church promoted the persecution of JWs. For all their rhetorical flourishes I don’t recall JWs lobbying governments to get the Catholic Church banned.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    @aquased

    Thanks for the contextual perspective. Helpful. Would you agree with this AI Google response to the question: Was denying the Real Presence a capital offence during the inquisition?

    Answer:

    Yes, denying the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist was a capital offense during the Inquisition. This was particularly true in regions like England, where it was a capital offense during Henry VIII's reign and continued to be a crime punishable by death for those who refused to compromise with the Catholic Church. The Real Presence, the belief that Christ's body and blood are present in the Eucharist after consecration, was a central tenet of Catholic belief and was often linked to other heresies that were also punishable by death.
    For example, in the English Reformation, those who denied the Real Presence faced severe consequences, including death, especially during the reigns of Henry VIII and Edward VI. The Inquisition, which was a church institution tasked with finding and punishing heresy, was a key tool in enforcing Catholic doctrine, and the denial of the Real Presence was one of the most serious offenses it dealt with.
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    There are several reasons to doubt the authenticity of the article claiming Steffie Brzakovic was a cousin of Pope Benedict XVI. First, the surname "Brzakovic" is clearly of Slavic origin, most likely Serbian or Croatian. It would have been highly unusual, even suspicious, for someone in Bavaria during the Nazi era to carry such a surname, given the strict and hostile environment toward Slavic peoples at the time. At that time, there was practically no population of South Slavic origin living in Germany, and anyone who had such a name would have Germanized their name long ago.

    Furthermore, the nickname "Ratzinger Pepi" raises even more questions. In German, especially in Bavaria where Joseph Ratzinger grew up, the common affectionate form of Josef was "Sepp" or "Seppl," not "Pepi," which sounds much more Spanish than German. In German-speaking families, especially in Bavaria, young cousins would not typically call each other by combining the family name with a nickname like "Ratzinger Pepi." They would either use just the nickname, or simply call each other by their first names. Using the last name plus a nickname sounds very unnatural and formal for close family relationships, especially between children. It does not fit the cultural habits of German families at that time.

    These inconsistencies in cultural and historical details strongly suggest that this story is not genuine and should be treated with skepticism.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Wasn’t Brzakovic her married name? 🤨

    She married in 1956.

    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/195999273/stefanie-brzakovic

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Sea Breeze

    Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I appreciate your willingness to engage sincerely with complex history. However, I must respectfully point out that the AI-generated answer you shared about the Inquisition and the denial of the Real Presence being a capital offense is quite misleading and requires some important clarifications.

    First, we have to distinguish between different historical contexts that are being carelessly lumped together: the Inquisition on the Continent (particularly in Spain and Italy) versus the political-religious upheaval in England during and after the Reformation. The punishment for denying the Real Presence was not, strictly speaking, a principal focus of the medieval Inquisition. Rather, issues judged by the Church’s inquisitors were generally aimed at rooting out heresies that undermined the Christian social fabric (such as Catharism, which denied both the incarnation and the sacraments altogether). While the Real Presence was certainly a central Catholic doctrine, ecclesiastical courts aimed primarily at theological correction and reconciliation. Executions were rare, and when they did happen, it was the secular authorities — not the Church — who carried them out after a finding of obstinate heresy. The Church itself never executed anyone.

    By contrast, in England after the break from Rome, under Henry VIII, Edward VI, and Elizabeth I, denying the Real Presence — or affirming it, depending on the monarch — could become a capital crime because the state had fused religious allegiance with political loyalty. In other words, it was seen not simply as a religious disagreement but as an act of treason against the Crown. Under Henry VIII, when he was still Catholic, denying the Real Presence was punishable by death. Under Edward VI, when England veered Protestant, affirming the Real Presence could get you killed. These brutal political realities had far more to do with nationalism, the consolidation of state power, and paranoia about foreign (especially papal) influence than with the Inquisition or purely religious concerns.

    Furthermore, the Anglican tradition that eventually developed did not maintain traditional Catholic Eucharistic doctrine. The Thirty-Nine Articles explicitly rejected transubstantiation, and Anglican theology largely moved toward a "pneumatic" (spiritual) or "mystical" understanding of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist — in contrast to the Catholic and Orthodox teaching of a real, substantial change of bread and wine into Christ’s Body and Blood. While high-church Anglicans and later Tractarians did recover a belief in the Real Presence (and even practices like Eucharistic adoration), this came much later and was not the faith of the English state church at the time when Catholics were being persecuted.

    It is therefore historically inaccurate to attribute English executions for denying the Real Presence to "the Inquisition" or to the Catholic Church as such. The Protestant English monarchs — especially Elizabeth I — imposed brutal penalties on Catholics and on those who did not conform to the new Anglican doctrine. As your own historical sources show, Elizabeth’s government passed laws that treated the practice of Catholicism itself (celebrating Mass, harboring a priest) as treasonous. It was the state, not the Catholic Church, that turned theological differences into political crimes punishable by torture and death.

    Moreover, we must remember that during this time, Catholicism was treated as synonymous with disloyalty to the monarch because of political tensions between Protestant England and Catholic powers like Spain and France. This nationalistic anti-Catholicism fueled a deeply unjust persecution, in which thousands of English Catholics, including holy men and women like St. Edmund Campion and St. Margaret Clitherow, suffered martyrdom for remaining faithful to Christ and the Church.

    In short, the idea that the Catholic Church, through the Inquisition, was executing people simply for rejecting transubstantiation is a distortion. It mixes different centuries, different institutions, and vastly different political contexts into a confused and ultimately misleading narrative. Real abuses and injustices certainly occurred in history — and the Catholic Church does not deny or excuse the sins of her members — but we must tell the truth accurately. The Inquisition’s primary concern was theological heresies that threatened the very survival of Christendom at a time when religion was the primary cohesive force in society. And even then, its processes were far more cautious and regulated than the brutal secular courts of the time.

    I would encourage anyone interested in truth to continue studying these matters seriously, avoiding both romanticized Catholic histories and Protestant "Black Legend" myths. Christ calls us to truthfulness, even about painful chapters of our history, and He also reminds us not to bear false witness — even against those with whom we disagree. I hope this clarifies the confusion and helps us all move closer to a truly honest understanding of our shared past.

    Thank you again for your willingness to discuss these difficult but important topics with such seriousness. It is a sign of genuine love for Christ and His truth.

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