by jwposter 271 Replies latest watchtower bible
2 - Saturn opposite the southern Fish of the Zodiac. On the morning of the 2nd, a rainbow formed an arc in the west. On the night of the 3rd, the moon 2 cubits in front of [ ... ].
Piscis Austrinus was the Southern Fish. Again this is day 1 of the first month:
I’ve already shown you to be thoroughly wrong. Just go away.
His latest 'efforts' are already covered under the comment here. Notice how he continues to ignore the much more significant problems already pointed out, and instead wrongly claims I must have checked the wrong year.
He still doesn't understand that 'behind' relates to position in relation to motion toward the horizon, and not whether something is further to the west. He also incorrectly associates the "Fish of the Zodiac" (translated from ŠIM) from the the 1915 translation of VAT 4956 with Piscis Austrinus. However, the "Fish of the Zodiac" as shown in the 1915 translation refers to the zodiac sign called 'fish' (i.e. Pisces), but refers to what the Babylonians called 'the Swallow'. Piscis Austrinus was known to the Babylonians as 'the southern fish' (MUL.KU), but it wasn't a constellation of the Babylonian zodiac, and isn't in the original text of VAT 4956. The Babylonian zodiac had no sign between Aquarius and Capricorn, where 'the southern fish' is found.
Back in reality, in the correct year, 568 BCE, the moon was visible behind Taurus where expected, and Saturn was in front of Pisces (the Swallow) where expected.
But let's see what he has to say about Mars entering Praesepe in Month II...
If we pretend that the "fish of the zodiac" per the 1915 translation is Piscis Austrinus (ignoring that it isn't a zodiac sign, and go along with his wrong calendation, and ignore the solstice), it still isn't good for his alternative chronology for 512/511 BCE.
Obverse
Line 2 (4 Apr 512 BCE), Saturn is actually between Aquarius and Capricorn, quite far above the southern fish, and also behind it, as made more obvious once the fish sets below the horizon before Saturn.
Line 9 (4 May 512 BCE), Saturn is still far above and still behind the southern fish.
Reverse
Line 5 (24 Jan 511 BCE), Moon is in Pisces, not the southern fish
Line 17 (7 March 511 BCE), no planets in the southern fish, Mercury in front of Pisces (after sunrise) but too far from the band to be considered entering.
Line 19 (14 March 511 BCE), no planets in the southern fish. Mercury within the band of Pisces (not observable, achronycal and in line with the sun). Position of Venus also not within the band of Pisces.
Of course, he'll probably say the dates are wrong (probably won't provide the dates he 'really' means either), and will probably say the 'fish of the zodiac' is sometimes Pisces and sometimes Piscis Austrinus and you 'just have to know'. Or some trash like that. But maybe he'll surprise me.
Reference:
Mathieu Ossendrijver (Berlin) Translating Babylonian Astronomical Diaries and Procedure Texts
“Behind”: the Akkadian word, arki, is abbreviated to ar2. The directions “behind” and “in front of” are defined in relation to the daily rotation of the sky which proceeds from east to west for an observer in the northern hemisphere, i.e. “behind” is “to the east of”, and “in front of” is “to the west of”.
Obv'
1: Year 37 of Nebukadnezar, king of Babylon. Month I (the 1st of which was identical with) the 30th (of the
preceding month), the moon became visible behind the Bull of Heaven; [sunset to moonset:] .... [ .... ]
Here is -567 showing that the Moon is NOT behind the Bull of Heaven:
-567
Obverse Line 2:
2: Saturn was in front of the Swallow. The 2nd, in the morning, a rainbow stretched in the west. Night of the
(corresponding to month 1 day 1). Notice it says that Saturn is in FRONT of the Swallow but the astronomy shows it is BEHIND the Swallow.
A pic showing this for -567 with Babylonian MUL.APIN skylore:
You can see already that -567 fails in the first two lines of the Obverse. Now consider how profound that is because if the moon if off in the first line and that translation is correct then the observations relative to the moon are off on all the rest. So any other potential alignments would have to be compensated for an acceptance of this displacement.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piscis_Austrinus
"Pisces Austrinus originated with the Babylonian constellation simply known as the Fish (MUL.KU)"
Parts of constellation Aquarius may have be associated with the the Fish or (southern fish) constellation. See the following for more on this:
Ein astronomischer Beobachtungstext aus dem 37. Jahre
Nebukadnezars II (-567/66)
Southern fish was the name for Piscis_Austrinus in the original translation of the VAT and preceded the change later to the Swallow. Here is from the original translated to English by Ann O'Maly
2. Saturn opposite the southern Fish of the Zodiac. On the morning of the 2 nd , a
rainbow formed an arc in the west. On the night of the 3 rd , the moon 2 cubits in front
of [...].
Reference:
Ein astronomischer Beobachtungstext aus dem 37. Jahre
Nebukadnezars II (-567/66)
By Paul V. Neugebauer and Ernst F. Weidner.
jwposter (quoting Mathieu Ossendrijver):
The directions “behind” and “in front of” are defined in relation to the daily rotation of the sky which proceeds from east to west for an observer in the northern hemisphere, i.e. “behind” is “to the east of”, and “in front of” is “to the west of”.
Oh dear. Ossendrijver would be mortified by your hackneyed interpretation of his statement. You've completely ignored the rotation aspect and latched on to west as a cardinal direction, which isn't what Ossendrijver is saying at all. As viewed in the northern hemisphere, rotation to the west of astronomical bodies is rotation further to the right. It is quite obvious that Ossendrijver isn't saying the sky rotates towards the west as the cardinal direction on earth, otherwise it would just stop when it got there, and we'd all be dead due to the halted rotation of the earth.
Fish of the Zodiac
The "fish of the zodiac" is a 1915 translation to indicate that the intended constellation is Pisces. Piscis Austrinus isn't a sign of the zodiac.
"Pisces Austrinus originated with the Babylonian constellation simply known as the Fish (MUL.KU)"
MUL.KU is not referenced in VAT 4956. On the same page as the first quote above, Ossendrijver says of SIM in Line 2 of VAT 4956:
“Swallow”, sinünütu(SIM): a part of Pisces.Now that that's taken care of... Praesepe...?
