Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 92 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @SeaBreeze: you continue quoting an old translation (KJV) that has no bearing on the actual Hebrew text. As I said, Jews do not believe the separation of soul in the way you describe based on the same scripture. KJV mistranslates 3 different Hebrew words as the separable soul. Hence my retort, do you believe the same words used in other scriptures apply to the separable soul as well? Do you believe animals and the wind have separable souls?

    As far as your retort on photons, photons (theoretically) have all their mass into energy. If you conclude from this, the soul is a massless energy, you should be able to measure it empirically. Feel free to point me to actual scientific research on photons leaving the body directed towards heaven or hell.

    However, the photon has zero invariant or rest mass. This is an invariant of an object which is defined as follows:

    The rest mass (m0m0) of a particle is a quantity having the dimensions of mass which is invariant in all reference frames and satisfies m02c2=(Ec)2−∥p∥2m02c2=(cE)2p2

    For most other particles, it can be thought of as the mass observed from a frame of reference where the particle is at rest. Or, we could think of it as the mass not attributed to the kinetic energy, but the particle itself. If there was a way (there isn't; special relativity prohibits it) to observe a photon at rest, you would find it massless. All the relativistic mass of the photon comes from it's energy.

    Moreover, information does have mass as I linked a paper on it. This is also a direct result of relativism and has been known since the 60s. An ‘idea’ has mass. Do the blocks with the number 3 printed on it not have mass? Yes, thus the idea of the number three is a representation/description of something physical. The soul, most religions do not believe in it, it isn’t physical, it’s an idea with no grounding in fact.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The Mortality of the Soul in the Bible?

    The Holy Scriptures teach the resurrection and glorification of humans, proclaiming the transformation of their souls, their entire existence, and ultimately the whole world. While the Apostolic Creed spoke of the resurrection of the body (Lat. caro), the Nicene Creed did not delve into the "technical" details, it only anchored the hope of resurrection (people resurrect, not just some parts of them). Because the Bible's view of humanity and salvation are intertwined, any concept of the fate of the soul that is foreign to the Scriptures is always based on a perception of humanity and salvation that is also foreign to the Scriptures.

    The following will discuss the idea of the mortality of the soul or the concept of "soul sleep". According to this, the soul dies along with the physical body and either perishes or remains unconscious ("soul sleep") until the resurrection. This concept is based on the Old Testament's view of humanity and has repeatedly emerged within the Western Church. Today, mainly Adventist-background and rationalist groups (like Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphian Community) hold this belief. They claim that their conception of the soul and its fate was originally part of Jewish-Christian faith. Therefore, in the following, we will analyze biblical passages often cited by them.

    "For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other." (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

    Claim: The human "soul" is the same as the animal's: mortal.

    Rebuttal: According to Ecclesiastes, life without God is in vain. The author does not make a declaration but ponders (thinks, observes, raises questions, and leaves it open, verses 18 and 21). He does not talk about the state of man after death but about the similarity in the earthly fate of man and beast; they both eventually die (verse 19). Their bodies will become dust (verse 20), but where the "soul" of man and beast goes after death is unknown to him (verse 21). The revelation took place in a progressive manner on many topics: for example, Abraham or Solomon could have known almost nothing about the soul and its fate, Jesus said a lot, and even more was given to the apostles. Therefore, in this matter, we cannot refer to Old Testament texts without considering the later New Testament revelations. The translation "the same spirit is in each" [Heb. ruah echad laqol] can be misleading to today's reader, as the term "soul" may be understood differently than the biblical Hebrew term rúah. However, others translations are more accurate: "the same breath of life is in each." Returning to the arguments of Ecclesiastes 3, the finiteness of biological life may not lead animals but can lead humans to fear God and live their earthly lives differently through realization.

    "The soul that sins shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

    Claim: If a sinful soul can die, then the soul is mortal.

    Rebuttal: Firstly, God, through the prophet, is contending against an Israeli proverb: "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge," meaning the children are punished for their fathers' sins. Ezekiel's message is clear: everyone is accountable for their own actions before God. Secondly, the literal translation ("which soul...") is misleading, as it merely means "whoever..." It's not about one "part" of a person, the soul (which proponents of soul mortality don't even consider a separate part), but about the whole person and their personal responsibility.

    In other texts, the literal translations of the Bible can be misunderstood. Acts 3:23 "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from the people" - meaning everyone. Joshua 11:11 "And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them" - meaning everyone.

    "Fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mt 10:28)

    Claim: If the soul can also be "destroyed" along with the body, then the soul is mortal.

    Rebuttal: Jesus is speaking to his disciples before sending them out to preach, preparing them for expected resistance (verses 23-27). He warns them not to fear men, who can only kill the body but not the soul (so they do have a soul); rather, they should fear God who can destroy both body and soul.

    However, Jesus mentions hell as the place of destruction. This refers to the Valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, where there was a rubbish burn in Jesus' time. In the religious literature of the centuries between the Old and New Testaments, the image of this smoky valley merged with the underworld and final judgment. Jesus once uses this conception of the underworld in a parable (Lk 16:23, Greek: Hades). In most other New Testament texts, however, hell primarily refers to the lake of fire after the final judgment, where the underworld and death are cast (Mk 9:43, James 3:6, Jude 7, Rev 19:20, 20:14). The key point is that hell will be the place of the sinners' destruction at the final judgment, so in Mt 10, Jesus is not primarily talking about the state of man after physical death or the underworld.

    "The dead know nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

    Claim: The dead are in an unconscious state, waiting for the resurrection.

    Rebuttal: The overall message of the book (Ecclesiastes) is that life, when viewed without God, seems vain. The beginning of Chapter 9 argues that anything can happen to anyone, whether good or bad, religious or irreligious (verses 1-2). It's not just that life can be unfair; humans, with their wickedness, exacerbate the troubles, and in the end, everyone dies (verse 3). However, as long as one is alive, there is hope (verse 4). The living at least know what will happen to them: they will surely die (and stand before God), but until then, they can change their fate (which gives hope). The dead, however, know nothing and are forgotten over time (verse 5). The earthly matters they fought for fade, and whether they once loved or hated no longer matters; they no longer partake in worldly affairs (verse 6). It's not that they lack consciousness or cease to exist but that they have fallen out of this world. Therefore, the lesson, indeed God's desire, is to enjoy the fleeting life – with work, honor, love, and good spirits – while it lasts (verses 7-9). For what counts beyond is what happened on Earth.

    "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth..." (Daniel 12:2)

    Claim: The dead are "asleep", i.e., they either don't exist or their souls aren't conscious, so they wait for the resurrection.

    Rebuttal: Firstly, the train of thought surrounding the quoted sentence deals only with Jews, not the entire humanity. Daniel's people will indeed go through great tribulation, but the time will come, and through Archangel Michael, those whose names are written down will be saved. Then, from among those who "sleep in the dust of the earth," many will awake (Heb. quts). Not everyone, just "many", and they are distinguished only by one criterion: were they "wise" (Heb. sakal)? A wise person is one who understands the sealed text about the latter days (12:10) and chooses God's side during the time of trial.

    Secondly, the imagery of "sleep" is used throughout the Bible as a euphemistic expression for death. The biblical phrase simply likens the process of dying to another externally similar experience: falling asleep. It doesn't intend to make any claims about the nature of death or the whereabouts and condition of the deceased. If we were to consistently interpret this metaphor literally, as if it speaks about the "state" of death, it would actually affirm the existence of the soul or consciousness after death. This is because a sleeping person does not cease to exist; their consciousness still operates, always dreaming, even if they don't remember it.

    "Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ..." (1 Corinthians 15:18)

    Claim: Death is the "sleep" of the soul, an unconscious state.

    Rebuttal: The term "fall asleep" (Greek: koimaomai) in the New Testament is a euphemism for "to die", and its exact English equivalent is "passed away" (Mt 9:24, 27:52, Jn 11:11, Acts 7:60, 13:36, 1Cor 15:6,18,20,51, 1Thess 4:13, 5:10).

    It should be noted that the Bible does not teach that the human soul is intrinsically immortal. However, it does teach that humans aren't just a temporary combination of body and life force: their "soul" survives physical death. This is supported by biblical examples: the spirits of those who died in Noah's time (1Pt 3:19-20) and the souls of the martyred Christians (Rev 6:9-11) or Elijah and Moses talking to Jesus (Lk 9:28-31). Paul did not consider himself synonymous with his body; that's why he wished to depart from the body and be with the Lord (2Cor 5:8). He even considered it possible that he had an out-of-body experience (2Cor 12:2-3). He only considered death as gain because being with Christ was far better than earthly service (Phil 1:23). As the Jewish saints are also alive, for God is the God of the living (Mk 12:24-27); Jesus also promised that whoever believes in Him, "though he dies, will live" (Jn 11:25).

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of Luke 23:43 is one of the most contested translations in their New World Translation (NWT). Their punctuation places the comma after "today" rather than before it, rendering the verse as:

    "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."

    This interpretation attempts to align the text with their theology, which denies the immediate existence of the soul after death and the possibility of entering Paradise on the day of death. However, this interpretation introduces several theological, linguistic, and exegetical problems

    1. Punctuation in Ancient Greek

    The Watchtower rightly notes that ancient Greek manuscripts lacked punctuation. However, this does not grant liberty for arbitrary punctuation. Translators must determine punctuation based on context, grammar, and the consistent patterns of speech in Scripture. The overwhelming majority of translations, both ancient and modern, place the comma before "today" for several reasons:

    a) The "Amen I tell you" Formula

    The phrase "Amen I tell you" (Greek: ἀμήν σοι λέγω) is used 74 times in the Gospels and never includes an adverb like "today" to modify the formula. It always introduces the main statement that follows. Placing "today" with "Amen I tell you" would constitute an unprecedented and irregular usage in Jesus' speech.

    For instance:

    • In Luke 5:24, Jesus says, “But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”. The phrase is immediately followed by the subject of His declaration.
    • Similarly, in Luke 18:17, Jesus says, "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

    The uniformity of this formula strongly indicates that in Luke 23:43, the correct rendering is, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

    2. What Did Jesus Mean by "Today"?

    The Watchtower argues that Jesus’ use of "today" simply emphasizes the moment of His speaking, rather than the timing of the promise's fulfillment. However, this is redundant and unnecessary.

    • Contextual Redundancy: If Jesus merely meant, "I tell you today," this would be superfluous. Of course, He is speaking "today"—when else would He be speaking? As the Catholic apologist John Gill rightly points out, this interpretation lacks sense or purpose.
    • Theological Coherence: Jesus' words contrast with the thief’s request. The thief asked, “Remember me when you come into your kingdom”—a future event. Jesus assures him, “Today you will be with me in Paradise”—shifting the focus to immediate consolation and hope.

    3. The Meaning of "Paradise"

    Jehovah's Witnesses claim that "Paradise" in this verse refers to a future earthly paradise (an Edenic restoration). However, this interpretation is inconsistent with the New Testament use of the term:

    a) Paradise as Heaven

    • In 2 Corinthians 12:3-4, St. Paul describes being caught up into "Paradise" and identifies it as the third heaven—a clear reference to the divine presence.
    • In Revelation 2:7, "Paradise" is associated with the tree of life, which is in the heavenly realm of God.

    Thus, "Paradise" in Luke 23:43 most naturally refers to heaven, the state of blessedness in God's presence, not an earthly restoration.

    b) "With Me in Paradise"

    Jehovah's Witnesses interpret "with me" to mean that the thief would eventually share an earthly paradise. However, this interpretation undermines Jesus' own words. If "Paradise" is an earthly location, then Jesus Himself would also be in that location. Yet Scripture affirms that Christ ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). The thief’s promised destination is where Christ is—in the immediate presence of God.

    4. Immediate Afterlife

    The Catholic Church teaches that souls experience immediate judgment after death, entering either heaven (directly or via purgatory), hell, or (in the case of the righteous who died before Christ) the Limbus Patrum. This teaching is supported by:

    • Philippians 1:23: St. Paul expresses a desire to “depart and be with Christ.”
    • Revelation 6:9-10: The souls of martyrs are depicted as conscious and present in heaven, awaiting the resurrection.
    • Luke 16:22: The parable of Lazarus and the rich man shows Lazarus immediately in Abraham's bosom, a place of rest and communion with the righteous.

    Jehovah's Witness theology, which denies the soul's immediate existence after death, contradicts these passages and relies on selective reinterpretation to fit their doctrinal framework.

    5. Theological Problems in the Watchtower's Interpretation

    a) An Inconsistent Translation

    The Watchtower’s placement of the comma after "today" in Luke 23:43 is inconsistent with their own treatment of similar verses. For example, in the 73 other occurrences of "Amen I tell you," they place the punctuation before the emphasized statement, not after.

    b) Christ’s Presence in Paradise

    If the thief is promised to be “with me in Paradise,” and Paradise is an earthly location, then Jehovah's Witnesses would need to explain why Christ Himself is depicted as being there. Their theology typically restricts Christ to heavenly rulership, making this interpretation incoherent.

    c) The Timing of the Promise

    While Jehovah's Witnesses argue that Christ could not have been in Paradise on that day because He was dead and in the grave, Catholic theology resolves this through the doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell. Christ’s soul, fully united to His divine nature, descended into Hades to proclaim victory to the righteous (1 Peter 3:18-19). Thus, Christ's presence in "Paradise" on that day is entirely consistent with His dual natures and His redemptive mission.

    Conclusion

    The Watchtower's interpretation of Luke 23:43 is not based on sound exegesis but on theological presuppositions designed to support their denial of the soul's immediate afterlife and Christ's divinity. In contrast, the Catholic understanding, rooted in the context of Scripture, Tradition, and linguistic evidence, affirms:

    1. The thief was assured of immediate fellowship with Christ upon death.
    2. "Paradise" refers to the heavenly state, not an earthly restoration.
    3. The phrase "Amen I tell you today" is consistent with Christ's formulaic declarations, emphasizing the immediacy and certainty of His promise.

    This verse offers profound comfort and hope, demonstrating Christ's boundless mercy and the immediate joy awaiting those who place their trust in Him. For the thief, and for all who die in Christ's grace, Paradise is not a distant hope but an immediate reality.

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