Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 91 Replies latest watchtower bible

Sea Breeze

EZE 18:4 tells us the soul who sins will die not live on somewhere else. So choose to believe the soul lives on if that is what you wish
Your assumption is still just as false as before. The soul that is sinning will die and be separated from its body.... just like scripture says.
Heaven is full of unresurrected dead souls, thinking, talking, being comforted etc. These dead souls are VERY conscious:
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. - Rev. 6: 9-11
The martyrdom of Stephen is also proof that of the survival of the spiritual part of man. When they stoned Stephen to death, we read that “he fell asleep.” This could have no reference whatever to the soul, for it was his body they had pummeled with rocks.
As Stephen’s body went to its death, earth was receding but Heaven’s gate approaching. He knew that he was entering into another sphere of consciousness. He prayed: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” (Acts 7:59). This disciple of Christ did not seek to postpone death or to fight it off. He likely remembered the words of Jesus: “Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do” (Luke 12:4)
"Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" - 2 Cor. 5: 8
Your belief in unconsciousness after death is a false hope according to the bible. You are welcome to believe anything you want as well. But, you have to ask yourself, what is it that would cause you to accept the tenets of a failed ideology like materialism over the words of a man that walked out of a tomb?
EasyPrompt

SeaBreeze: "Heaven is full unresurrected dead souls, thinking, talking, being comforted etc"

Have you been there? You haven't been there. Jesus had been there. He never said anything about all that jazz.

Jesus gave that vision to John in Revelation. The verses you quoted in Revelation 6:10,11 are figurative. They are representative of people who are waiting for something eagerly - a change in circumstance. They aren't "alive in heaven". They are waiting for God to take vengeance on the religious institutions. And they will be satisfied very soon when the God of Justice enthrones Jesus in heaven and he clears God's name of reproach by allowing the religious institutions to be destroyed.
Sea Breeze

Have you been there?
Yes.

Jesus had been there. He never said anything about all that jazz. Jesus gave that vision to John in Revelation.
You do realize the statement above is a total contridiction?
enoughisenough

The blood ( life/soul being in the blood) was to be poured out onto the ground. Ps 104:29 ....If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust. Gen 3:19 ...for dust you are and to dust you will return. Ecc 12:7 ( speaking of dying) then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it. ( people just really want to believe Satan's lie that you don't die ) Lets pretend that the souls are alive in heaven- would they be happy? or would they be in torment? Suppose your dead parent or grandparent or friend was in heaven watching you...would they be happy to see what is going on in your life-see your illnesses, the injustices dealt you, see your addictions, see your struggle to provide for yourself and family? or would they be tormented knowing there is nothing they can do...so much for living forever in heaven... ( of course that isn't what the Bible tells us )
punkofnice

the dead know nothing at all
Some living people a pretty stupid too.
EasyPrompt

EasyPrompt said: "Have you been there?"

SeaBreeze said: "Yes."

SeaBreeze asked: "You do realize the statement above is a total contridiction?"

Yes, SeaBreeze, I do realize your statement "Yes" on having been to heaven and back is a contradiction.

John 3:13

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
aqwsed12345
There are several arguments in the Bible against the monistic anthropology view:
1. God is a spirit (pneuma) without a body, so there is not necessarily a need for a physical body to talk about personality. If personality does not depend on the body in an absolute sense, then we can not only say that we are a body, but also that we have a body.
2. The Old Testament primarily emphasizes human unity, but this does not mean it is strictly monistic:
- the Old Testament also contains references to the inner being of man
- several theologians (e.g., E. Jacob) showed that the term "heart" in the Old Testament refers to the inner being of man, which differs from the external man (cf. Ps 73:26)
- Prov 20:27 "The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all his innermost parts."
- in the Old Testament, we see faint hints that there is life after the death of the body: Ps 73:24-26, Ps 49:6-16, Prov 15:24.
- the Old Testament strongly condemns necromancy (Lev 20:6; Deut 18:9-12; 2Kings 21:6; 23:24; Isa 8:19-20; 19:3; 1Sam 28:3-25), which at least makes it likely that Jews generally believed in the existence of the soul after death. Notably, while the prophets often ridiculed the worship of other gods by pointing out that these gods did not exist, they never refuted the inquiry from the dead by denying the continuation of the souls of the deceased!
- the intertestamental literature clearly represents the view that the soul continues to live after the body has been placed in the grave (it is unlikely that this would be entirely contrary to the Old Testament Hebrew view, rather, what was present in seed form in the Old Testament became an explicitly formulated belief before the New Testament times, openly professed by the Pharisees - with whom Paul, even as a Christian, agreed - against the Sadducees)
3. The New Testament clarifies the divine revelation in many ways; the biblical revelation is gradual, so the Old Testament's image of man also becomes clearer in the light of the New Testament's teaching.
- Paul, along with the Pharisees, not only believed in angels and resurrection but also in a soul separate from the body, as he testified during a debate
- Acts 23:6-8 "But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, 'Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!' And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both."
- We also see this duality in Paul's letters:
* 1 Cor 2:11 "For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God."
* 1 Cor 5:3 "For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed."
* 1 Cor 5:5 "deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
* 1 Cor 7:34 "There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world—how she may please her husband."
* 2 Cor 4:16 "Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day." (from the context, it is clear that this is about the body and soul)
* 2 Cor 7:1 "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
* Col 2:5 "For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ."
- James also spoke of the body and soul: James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
- in the New Testament, we see that the immaterial part of man continues to live after the death of the body: Mt 22:31-32 "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." The future resurrection guarantees that they are alive now after their death (which is expressed in the present tense: God is their God now, not just in the past!)
- the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31) suggests that people continue to live in a conscious state between their death and resurrection, even though their bodies rest in the grave. It is not convincing to object that Jesus only used a popular legend here, for if the situation described in the parable cannot be true, then Jesus would have reinforced a mistake (as evidenced by the fact that Christians in almost every age took this parable as teaching!)
- Jesus' spirit (pneuma) separated from his body upon death and went to heaven with the thief's spirit (while their bodies were buried). Lk 23:46 "Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (pneuma)!' And having said this he breathed his last."
- Lk 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.'"
- Monistic interpretation: "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise." (The word "today" refers to when Jesus makes the promise, not to when it is fulfilled.)
- Objection 1: The word "today" would then be unnecessary redundancy, especially unlikely when someone is speaking with difficulty!
- Objection 2: The natural reading is that Jesus, using his favorite expression ("Truly, I tell you"), emphasizes his statement: "Today you will be with me in paradise!"
- Objection 3: The promise's immediacy makes Jesus' words especially comforting: even today!
- Stephen's spirit (pneuma) went to God upon death: Acts 7:59-60 "And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit (pneuma).' Falling to his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them.' And when he had said this, he died." Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God, ready to receive him (7:56).
- Paul was convinced that death meant a joyful communion with Christ, and in this state, separated from our bodies, we are "naked" spirits, waiting for our resurrection and "putting on" the imperishable body: 2 Cor 5:1-10, Phil 1:21-24.
- The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks about worshiping God in the presence of the spirits of the righteous made perfect around God's throne: Heb 12:22-24.
- In the Book of Revelation, the deceased saints are in conscious communion with God: 4:4, 6:9-11, 7:9-17, 20:4.
- Peter speaks of the torment of the spirits of the unbelievers between their death and the final judgment: 1 Pet 3:19-20, 2 Pet 2:9.
The view of monism, in the light of the New Testament's teaching (as traditionally understood by Christians), thus does not hold up, no matter how popular it has become in recent decades. The rest of the text also confirms that the duality of the spirit-soul and body – a feature of human nature – is among the fundamental tenets of biblical anthropology. However, between 1930 and 1960, it became fashionable among theologians to deny this. Under the influence of J. Pedersen's Old Testament interpretations and R. Bultmann's New Testament interpretations, and due to their disillusionment from the 19th-century idealism, authors en masse insisted that according to the 'Hebrew way of thinking,' man forms a coordinated, indivisible (psychosomatic) unity: he does not have a body, he himself is the body, and so on. They were right in emphasizing that, by stressing the unity of personality in biblical thinking, they discarded the long-standing mixture of Christian faith and vulgar Platonism. Yet under the influence of academic fashion, they too quickly abandoned the doctrine of dual structure. Though this decision was relatively weak and methodologically dubious, they did not take the time to review it. Ultimately, this elicited a healthy reaction. Robert H. Gundry, in his recently published work on the concept of the body, reconstructs the biblical interpretation of almost every Christian generation on this issue. The duality is unmistakably outlined in the New Testament, as in contemporary Jewish religion; moreover, this view is presupposed by the doctrine of the intermediate state, i.e., the survival of the spirit-soul without the body between death and resurrection. As for the Old Testament, despite the vagueness of the concepts and the ambiguity of the words, it would be a mistake to think that this duality is not present in it. We often find references to the inner life of man, which the Old Testament authors call the heart.
John W. Cooper's relatively new study also challenges the monistic stance, advocating instead for a "holistic dualism" (Body, Soul, and Life Everlasting: Biblical Anthropology and the Monism-Dualism Debate, Eerdmans, 1989); other authors who have argued for a dualistic view in recent years include W. Grudem: Systematic Theology; R.H. Gundry: Soma in Biblical Theology With Emphasis on Pauline Anthropology; H. Ridderbos: Paul: An Outline of His Theology; John Murray: The Nature of Man; C. Ryrie: Basic Theology; C. Venema: The Promise of the Future.
EasyPrompt

Hebrews 10:12,13

"But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet."

After Jesus was resurrected, he went to heaven. He was not enthroned right away.

He was not enthroned in 1914.

When he is enthroned, he will cast the Devil down, as is described in Revelation 12:7-12:

"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

It's not until after the Devil is cast out of heaven that Jesus takes "home" those who are "born again".

Revelation describes that action of the resurrected 144,000 going to heaven as "the marriage of the Lamb".

A man doesn't take his "bride" home to a house full of enemies. Jesus doesn't take any of the new creation home until after the Devil is cast out of heaven. The Devil isn't cast out of heaven until after Jesus is enthroned.

Paul's writings in Thessalonians show that the "bride" goes all together. Those of the 144,000 who fell asleep in death are still sleeping. They didn't go to heaven in the first century, because Paul and John said there were false teachers who taught the resurrection already occurred but those teachers were lying. The GB today is also lying - the anointed ones who died have not been resurrected to heaven, they are still dead.

They will be resurrected during the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation, and people on earth will see them, just like they saw Jesus when he was resurrected and before he ascended to heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:4-6, 22,23, 49-54

"he was raised up on the third day according to the Scriptures; and that he appeared to Ceʹphas, and then to the Twelve. After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death..."

The anointed/born-again ones who fell asleep in death back in the first century were not immediately raised up. They stayed asleep in death.

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence."

The "presence" referred to means after Jesus takes the throne in heaven at the beginning of the great tribulation. The "presence" of Christ in Kingdom power will be during the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation.

"And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one. But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.”"

It is during the latter part of the 3 1/2 years of the tribulation that the anointed who are asleep will be raised up and those still alive will be changed and all together they will join the Lord in the "marriage of the Lamb" for the final battle of Armageddon.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."

The GB and other clergy of Christendom have been teaching for a long time that "when you're dead, you're not dead," but they are part of the apostasy foretold.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

"However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction."

The "man of lawlessness", the religious institutions and the leaders associated with them, will be destroyed and removed from power at the beginning of "the Day of Jehovah" and "the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ", a 3 1/2 years when there will be great tribulation. The "gathering together" of the 144,000 takes place after all the religious institutions are destroyed. Jesus also spoke of this in the gospels and in Revelation.

Everybody will see them when they are resurrected (that's part of why people on earth who doubted God at that point will be afraid), but until that time comes, Paul, John, Mary, Peter, Stephen...all those first century anointed ones and all the ones who have died since, they are still asleep in death and they can't do anything right now because, just as is written in Ecclesiastes 9:5..."the dead know nothing at all."
Sea Breeze

Yes, SeaBreeze, I do realize your statement "Yes" on having been to heaven and back is a contradiction.
John 3:13 - "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
@EastPrompt
You are running into problems again using your WT installed re-definitions and assumptions on the nature of man. As I pointed out before - the bible claims we are a tripartite being constituted of soul, body & spirit in:
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Hebrews 4:12
A "man" is constituted of fallen soul, body and spirit. If any of those are missing, then that component is not a "man". But "you" can stil go to heaven.... because in the bible, both the soul and the spirit are characterized as personhood using pronouns and consciousness to describe those components as "you".
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
See how in the above scripture the "person" departing is separate from the body? Here, God equates personhood with spirit:
1 Co_14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth
And of course this verse decribes a person as being either in the body or out of the body:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise - 2 Cor. 12: 2

The materialism ideas that the WT taught us are not biblical. They were installed by the WT using sophisticated indoctrination techniques and can take many years to finally shed.

Regardless of where our consciousness ends up, we will always be conscious for ever, and ever, and ever and ever. That is why scripture asks us to not just be causal participants in Christianity but move on to the point where a person absolutely knows where they will spend eternity. And, yes a person can KNOW for sure where they will spend eternity. That provides a great deal of comfort as we begin to shed worldly ideas and philosophies and realize that we will always be conscious:

1 John 5:13
"that you may know that you have eternal life"
This is not just consciousness. "Life" here is indicative of a glorified body, together with your soul and spirit all together for eternity. Remember, the definition of death is separation of the components of man (Gen. 35: 18)
"we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him" - 1 John 3: 2-3
And, how was Jesus when he ascended? He was in his own glorified body, soul and spirit - fully "man".
A person can know their destiny for sure. It is really the only way to keep from suppressing the enormity and reality of our eternal consciousness.
EasyPrompt

SeaBreeze said: "we are a tripartite being constituted of soul, body & spirit"

"Tripartite"

Some evolutionary theorists say we are from Trilobites...

Some ancient religions say we are Tripartite, like the ancient Egyptians with their Ba, Ka, Akh, etc...

The Bible says:

Luke 3:38

"...Adam, son of God."

Mark 1:1

"Jesus Christ, the son of God."

1 Corinthians 15:45

"So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

Adam was not the son of Jesus. Adam was the son of God.

Jesus was not the son of Jesus. Jesus was the son of God.

Man is made in God's image.

God is not "tripartite." Man is not "tripartite."

After the Israelites came out of Egypt, the place where there were "Trinities" like Isis/Osiris/Horus and "tripartite" spirit/body/soul teachings, this is what Jehovah said to set things straight about himself...

Deuteronomy 6:4,5

"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."

Man is made in God's image. We are each one person, not three. In Bible times, only demonized people had multiple-personalities.

You might be "tripartite", @SeaBreeze, but I think you're "tri-pping".

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

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