Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 91 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Sea Breeze

  @Rattigan
  
  

  At death the circuits are turned off. Like when you turn your computer off, the RAM loses power and everything in memory is gone.

  In your reasoning example above, you are still pre-supposing that the material body is all there is to man. If your presumption is true, you would have a point. But scripture says we are soul, body & spirit.... so your reasoning fails becasue of a false assumption.

  Additionally, the bible gives its own definition of "death: "as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni" - Gen. 25: 18

  Clearly, when the soul is separated from a body - you are dead. Many other scriptures quoting Jesus shows that souls are fully conscious, though dead. Rev. 6: 9-11 shows dead souls, talking, feeling, remembering and being comforted by God.
  
  You already likely believe in many things that are not physical. Things like, numbers, logic, laws of physics, ideas, etc. How much does an empty hard drive weigh? How much does the same hard drive weigh when the memory is full? Answer: The same. Information has no mass.
  
  Since, you already believe many things are real that are not physical, ie., have no mass, weight or volume, why would you assume that such a commomnly accepted concept is inappropriate to the bible, especially since it is filled with descriptions to the contrary?
  
  Does it disturb you that you will still be conscious for eternity after your body expires?
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  peacefulpete

  It's almost as if beliefs about the dead were evolving over time as the Jews were exposed to other cultures. Imagine that.
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  Anony Mous

  @Sea Breeze: information (energy or the reduction of entropy) does have mass, that’s the whole idea behind E=MC2

  The information on a hard drive or in a brain however is just storage, both the existence or lack of useful/structured information is information in itself (eg. If you have a (partially) blank drive, you can infer knowledge about the use of the drive for example).

  Things like logical constructs and language are related to the physical, the soul as you describe is metaphysical and very much a Christian idea, based on Plato’s teachings, most other religions do not share the same ideas. Other religions (eg. Judaism) does not share the modern idea of the Christian soul, the Hebrew Scriptures do not support the translation of the single word “soul”, which is an invention of Medieval Christianity, rather the original text has Neshamah (life itself, the human animating force) Nefesh (living person related to its material needs) and Ruach (a divine animating force) but nowhere do these seem to indicate a separate being, although life force in later scriptures can return to God, it does not seem to imply a personality or connectedness to the individual or body (more a ‘conservation of energy’ type deal).
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  Sea Breeze

  the soul as you describe is metaphysical and very much a Christian idea, based on Plato’s teachings,

  @Anymous

  Wrong. Genesis 25: 18 predates Plato by a thousand years and many OT scriptures predating Plato describe the personhood of a soul.

  (information does have mass)

  Wrong again. Information does not have mass.
  
  
• 

  Sea Breeze

  Jesus said plainly, "Lazarus has died," his words jive with what is written in Ecclesiastes 9:5.

  @EasyPrompt,

  I agree with you. Jesus knew that the definition of death is separation of the various components of man - soul,body & spirit. You stated that you grew up in an atheist household, before becoming a JW. Have you ever gone to a bible school to learn the basics of biblical reading skills?

  Here's an example of how heretics totally screw up exegesis of the bible.

  
  Here are three scriptures, all from Ecclesiastes that proves Watchtower is full of nonsense - while stating that they, and they alone know which scriptures are limited in scope and which scriptures are not.

  1. "a living dog is better than a dead lion." - Eccl. 9: 4

  WT would call this limited because they certainly don't teach that there is nothing worth dying for. The WT loves martyrs and has created thousands of them with their wacky, wishy washy doctrines on blood, transplants, military service, Govt. I.D. cards etc. When people die for WT beliefs it adds credibility to their heresies. WT, would never take this statement literally as a universal truth.
  
  Jesus also would not count this scripture as literal in a total sense. It might apply to a carnal person, who lives to fight another day, but that is about it. Jesus said that no man has greater love than this: that a man would give up his life on behalf of his friends.

  2. "money is the answer for everything" - Eccl. 10: 19

  The WT would not want people believing this literally because their members would actually have money to buy the things that they dream about taking from others after armageddon. Such an interpretation would mess up their carrot and stick donkey show they pull on families.

  And of course Jesus famously said that "man doesn't live on bread alone but on everything that is from the mouth of the Lord." ; showing the limited scope of this verse as applying to "under the sun", in "this life".

  3. Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

  Here the WT believes that they alone know this verse insn't limited to just a person's body "under the sun" - although virtually all the other scriptures in Eccl. do appy to a limited scope of "under the sun". No, they want you to just turn your whole life over to them and if they get it wrong... Hey, what does it really matter? When you are dead, you won't know it or anything else for that matter - no biggy. right? WRONG.
  
  Jesus warned people over and over and over about the dangers of eternal separation from God. He REALLY wants people to know that if they find themselves in that place, it was because THEY wanted it not him.

  "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul" - Mt. 10: 28

  If people know that they will always be conscious .... somewhere; then that is a very powerful impetus to be alert not to do stupid stuff like the JW's do. Like rejecting an agreement "for the forgiveness of sins" the way they do at each Memorial. (SEE MT. 26: 27,28)
  
  In the end, the phrase is uttered "Let thy will be done". Either man says it to God. Or, God will eventually say it to man.

  What you believe matters.... A LOT.
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  Anony Mous

  @SeaBreeze: I contradicted you by explaining the wrong translation from original Hebrew. Everywhere in Genesis nefesh is used which is used for any living person or being, including animals which in Christian tradition do not have souls. You have to do a bit better than misquoting a particular scripture which doesn’t even talk about souls and doesn’t even have a common translation. The only mention of death in Gen 25:18 is KJV which is not a proper translation by any means, no other translation mentions the death of Ishmael.

  Information does have mass per the work of Claude Shannon and Rolf Landauer by the principles of whose theories you are currently even capable of writing your message on these forums. The idea that information has no mass has been outdated for well over 60 years https://pubs.aip.org/aip/adv/article/9/9/095206/1076232/The-mass-energy-information-equivalence-principle#

  Edit: I think you were talking about Gen 35:18, once again you are basing your ideas on the concept INTRODUCED by the KJV that ‘the soul was leaving her body’, more accurate translation simply state “As she took her last breath”. The word used nefesh is also used in Gen 1:20, 9:10 etc which is not applicable to the idea of a uniquely human soul that is separate from the body. I don’t see any translation that supports that idea.
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  EasyPrompt

  "You stated that you grew up in an atheist household, before becoming a JW. Have you ever gone to a bible school to learn the basics of biblical reading skills?"
  

  
  

  I did not grow up in an atheist household, as I explained to you before. I was an atheist at one time in my life. But as far as "Bible school" goes...

  
  

  1 John 2:26,27

  
  

  "I write you these things about those who are trying to mislead you. And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but the anointing from him is teaching you about all things and is true and is no lie. Just as it has taught you, remain in union with him."

  
  

  No true Christian needs to "pay" for what the Christ freely pours out.

  
  

  John 7:15-18

  
  

  "And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality. Whoever speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him, this one is true and there is no unrighteousness in him."

  
  

  SeaBreeze, for hundreds of years, the Jews sacrificed animals at the temple. The animals who were killed did not have three parts or essences that floated off to different realms. The reason God used animals to train the Hebrews about the need for sacrifice was because they could see the very clear difference between a live animal and a dead animal.

  
  

  Ecclesiastes 3:18-20

  
  

  "I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

  
  

  Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law. His blood was offered once for all time. If he wasn't really dead when he offered himself up, then the sacrifice wouldn't count. He had to be 100% all dead in order to be a 100% cover for all mankind.
• 

  Sea Breeze

  @Anony Mous

  The reference to Gen. 25: 18 is a typo - incorrect. It should be Gen. 35: 18

  "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin."

  Biblical Death (which is the only one that matters) is the separation of the soul/spirit/body construct. Those three things form our species - man (Or woman) as scriptures plainly state.

  The generally held view is that information has no mass. Likewise, the generally held view of photons, the particles that carry light, have no mass either. Experimental physicists like to push the limits of testing, but establishing zero is hard to do. Recently, some researchers established that photons weigh less than 10 to the 24th power smaller than the mass of an electron, which itself in 100 million times smaller than an atom. Experiments at this level are fascinating. And, it is (probably) zero. But if not, you probably won't have many theologians having much of a problem attributing a soul with a similar undetectible amount of mass/energy.
  
  

  How Does Special Relativity Predict That Photons Have No Mass? (Simple Mathematical Proof)

  "One of the consequences of Einstein’s theory of special relativity is that particles which move at the speed of light (c), can’t have any mass. Or another way to say it is that particles with mass can’t move at the speed of light.

  For photons, which of course move at the speed of light, this prediction indeed happens to be true. But how exactly does special relativity predict this?

  The answer is very simple and to see it, you only need one of the fundamental results of special relativity, which is the formula for relativistic total energy"

  
  

  Now let's think about the number 3 (a nice biblical number). Does it have mass? Can you wear it out? If I use it for weeks and then give it to you, will it still be new? In other words, does it decay? Is it real?

  But, going back to your original cited experiment by Vopson: If He is correct and information does have mass after all, then Materialists have a much bigger problem on their hands. Holloway explains:
  
  

  "Let’s accept that creation of information can indeed increase the amount of energy and mass in a system. But, according to the conservation of energy, the energy in a closed system remains constant. So, if Vopson is correct we now have a mystery because his theory is in tension with the conservation of energy. The only solution is that the system is not closed. So where is the opening in the system? If the system is physically closed, then the influx of information must come from outside the physical realm."

  ERIC HOLLOWAY, “DOES INFORMATION WEIGH SOMETHING AFTER ALL? WHAT IF IT DOES?”
• 

  Sea Breeze

  If he wasn't really dead when he offered himself up, then the sacrifice wouldn't count.

  @EasyPrompt

  Of course he was "really" dead. His soul / spirit was separated from his body. That is what death means.

  being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison - 1 Peter 3: 18-19

  This scripture says that Christ was put to death and made alive in the spirit, indicating that he was still active.....AFTER DEATH.

  It says that he went in the spirit to proclaim to spirits “in prison.” We would hardly consider heaven and the presence of God to be a prison, so this can only be a reference to hell.

  That this “prison” is hell has further support from the fact it says that the spirits are those who were disobedient during the days of Noah.
  
  Giving up the WT definition of death is hard to do... but it is all right there in scripture.

  By the way.... your difficulty in accepting the biblical definition of death is also why you cannot accept the biblical definition of a resurrection.... since it is the same thing in reverse - reconstitution vs. separation.
  
  Your (the WT) concept of a resurrection is actually a re-creation. Totally different. My bible says you can't be saved unless you believe Jesus was resurrected:

  if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10: 9 Get it?

  YOU HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO THE GREATEST MIND CONTROL PROGRAMMING EVER DEVISED... get over it and read your bible.
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  EasyPrompt

  "YOU HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO THE GREATEST MIND CONTROL PROGRAMMING EVER DEVISED"
  

  
  

  "your difficulty in accepting the biblical definition of death is also why you cannot accept the biblical definition of a resurrection"

  
  

  "read your bible"
  

  
  

  "Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all""