Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason 277 Replies latest watchtower bible

MeanMrMustard

No for there are various translations for Jer.25:11such the New English Bible which renders the text this way:'For seventy years this whole country shall be a scandal and a horror,these nations shall be in subjection to the king of Babylon".
Right. I can’t get NEB online. Nor can I get the REB, which was created because the NEB was fast and loose with some of its translations. NEB was more concerned with English fluency than accuracy. I am suggesting that there is a really good reason why the English in 25:11 is rendered as two separate thoughts, with the seventy years only attaching to the servitude of “these nations” in 99% (probably more) of Bible translations out there - mainly, the Hebrew here is actually pretty straightforward. A long time ago when I debated this amongst other religious forums, I decided to test this idea. I personally emailed Hebrew scholars (real ones at Universities), and I threw it out to b-Hebrew mailing list too. The answers I received were unanimous - the grammar is simple in Hebrew. Unfortunately I didn’t keep these email exchanges.
But you can easily see if you display all the translations in biblegateway next to each other.

Not only that, but you are stuck with the context of 25. Even looking at 27:6 - 12, the emphasis is on serving the king of Babylon.
It is only for Judah that we a defined history for their servitude to Babylon as for the other nations roundabout we have no similar defined history.
This makes no sense. Word salad. It’s defined right in chapter 25. The nations are explicitly listed.
Jeremiah clearly states that other nations would also serve Babylon but Judah would serve for a precise period of 70 years.
No. It explicitly states the opposite in simple grammar. If you read the NWT of 25:11, states the opposite. Are you saying the NWT committee didn’t understand English grammar?
Babylon certainly received a judgement with its Fall in 539 BCE but the final calling to account only took place after the 70 years had ended in 537 BCE with its gradual demise in history leading to its total desolation.
No. 25:12 says the exact opposite. It explicitly states the order of events : First 70 years ends, then calling to account. In no way can the calling to account happen after the 70 years.
So in verse 12 Babylon's judgement only begins after the end of the 70 years not before with its end of its city, kingship and land.
Nice and easy!!!
You have it exactly backwards.
Finkelstein

Within the entire Christian theological community the dating of 1914 by the WTS. is seen as a scam, a con or an act of apostasy/false prophesying.
The WTS used this dating scheme to help in the sales and proliferation of the literature the WTS published as it was not supported scripturaly.
There was and still is a structure of commercialized charlatanism which has been operating since its very beginning as an organization.
The WTS was able to exploit people's ignorance of what the bible really says and those took the WTS interpretation with confidence and the WTS was able to build a religion around it known today as the JWS.
There is an element of corruption inherently based in the WTS/JWorg but you have search behind the curtain so to speak.
The acumen of the WTS being a fear mongering corrupt religious publishing house is there, many now days are awakening up to that fact.
People like scholar posting here have invested much their lives supporting the WTS's doctrines as the organization has strategically indoctrinated them to do .
Certain men (elders) have basked in the accepted power of god in a social environment which has elevated their own personal stature and identity of themselves and they pretty much like it that way.
MeanMrMustard

No. 25:12 says the exact opposite. It explicitly states the order of events : First 70 years ends, then calling to account. In no way can the calling to account happen after the 70 years.
Quoting myself here. I messed this paragraph up. Went too fast @ work on a phone. Meant:
No. 25:12 explicitly tells an order. 70 years ends then Babylon is called to account. The WT has the 70 years ending in 537 BC, two years after Babylon was called to account. Doesn’t work.
Also, I am definitely coming down with a cold. May not respond , maybe I will.. don’t know.
scholar

Sanchy
Nope! The Aramaic word does mot mean years but appointed times of periods of time or a set definite if unspecified period of time. You should check the Lexica materials.
The mention of Gid's Kingdom/rulership is thematic in not only ch.4 but the entire book of Daniel so it plays a major role in the interpretation of the tree dream.
No , the connection between both period is grounded within the test such as the OG translation of Dan.4 which makes the connection explicit.
The prestigious commentary by Collins makes the point quite clear but as you do not do exegesis i understand why you fail to understand the matter.
scholar
Finkelstein

Reflectively all the 607 dating and that of 1914 (This Generation) was self endeavoring actions by men who were really novice bible scholars, who were self indentured to create public interest toward the literature the WTS published.
These actions by these men could very well be identified as acts of apostasy and sin against god and his son Jesus.
The WTS started out that way and it continues on that path to this very day.
Be a JWs and question these doctrines and you'll soon find yourself kicked to the curb for being honestly loyal to god and scripture.
Finkelstein

I'd like to thank Scholar for coming here and helping in exposing the vile corruption, apostasy and false prophesies orchestrated by the leaders of the Watchtower Corporation.
He has been a great asset in exposing " The Truth "
A sincere thank you Scholar
bennyk

And you'll notice that "scholar" still hasn't responded to my two earlier posts re: 1914.
To help him out, here they are again:
It is not necessary to disprove 607 in order to disprove the Watch Tower Society's claims regarding 1914.The Watch Tower Society has already disproved its chronology in its own published materials.
"Suppose that A.D. 1915 should pass with the world's affairs all serene and with evidence that the "very elect" had not all been "changed" and without the restoration of natural Israel to favor under the New Covenant. (Rom. 11:12,15.) What then? Would not that prove our chronology wrong? Yes, surely! And would not that prove a keen disappointment? Indeed it would! It would work irreparable wreck to the Parallel dispensations and Israel's Double, and to the Jubilee calculations,and to the prophecy of the 2300 days of Daniel, and to the epoch called "Gentile Times," … (Watch Tower, Dec. 15, 1913 Reprints p. 5368)
and:
The accounts in Josephus indicate that the temple (and Jerusalem) lay desolate FIFTY years (Apion 1:21), which fifty years were a part of the SEVENTY years of SERVITUDE (Antiquities 11:1:1). Apion 1:19 does NOT contradict this; it confirms that the fifty year's period of desolation occurred "during the interval of seventy years". The prophecies in Jeremiah do not indicate seventy years of "desolation", nor of "deportation" or 'captivity' (whether of a specific group, or viewed in the aggregate), but of servitude, i.e. "vassalage". Note that the prophecies as recorded in Jeremiah do not even require deportation and exile at all: pls cf. Jer. 27:7,8,11-13,17; 38:17,18.
The SEVENTY years of SERVITUDE (Antiquities 11:1:1) run from 609 B.C.E. (following the Assyrian Empire's crushing defeat at Haran and the subsequent vassalage of Judea to Babylon) until 539 B.C.E. (when Babylon itself was defeated). The FIFTY years of DESOLATION for the Temple (Apion 1:21) run from 587 B.C.E. (when Jerusalem and its Temple were destroyed) until 537 B.C.E. (when the foundations of the Temple were laid [second year of Cyrus]). The several deportations occurred at various times during the seventy years, but the SERVITUDE of Judea as a nation need not begin with any of the deportations as recorded in the Bible.
scholar

MrMeanMustard
In connection with the translation of Jer.25:11 you should consult the major technical commentaries on Jeremiah and read what Rolf Furuli has written on the grammar of this text.
Yes one must read the context of this chapter and you will notice that in vs.1 and vs.9 which shows that the target is Judah and not Babylon.
The historical accounts in the Bible concerning Judah provide data that allows one to construct a clear chronology for Judah but such is not the case for the other nations.
Jer. 25:11 simply states that Judah along with the other nations would serve Babylon for a period of 70 years and scholar has always said that the 70 years was a period of desolation of Judah, an Exile of the Jews to Babylon and a period of servitude to Babylon beginning with the Fall in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE.
But that is what Jeremiah explicitly states that it was only after the 70 years had been fulfilled or ended that a Judgement against Babylon would come into effect.
I have it exactly what Jeremiah states in vs.12/
scholar
scholar

bennyk
The matter of the 'fifty years' in Josephus may simply be one of the following:
scribal error
Quoting Berossus in error
Dating an event regarding circumstances in the Land whilst desolated marking 50 years within the overall time period of 70 years. You can pick any one of these scenarios.
The prophecies of Jeremiah most certainly refer to a 70 years period of desolation a 70 year period of Exile and a 70 year period of Babylonian domination/servitude all three events to run concurrently.
The beginning of the 70 years from 609 BCE as you claim is impossible historically and makes no sense because nothing of any relevance happened in that year.
Josephus states that the Temple lay in a state of obscurity for fifty years not desolation for he earlier said that the city was desolate during the interval of seventy years.
scholar
Sanchy

Scholar wrote: The mention of Gid's Kingdom/rulership is thematic in not only ch.4 but the entire book of Daniel so it plays a major role in the interpretation of the tree dream.
The role God's Kingdom or rulership plays in the dream is already outlined within the chapter by Daniel himself. No second interpretation needed. Nowhere does the chapter describe the dream's Tree as representing the Kingdom, as Watchtower's followers claim. The tree only represents King Neb. Anyone can open up their Bibles and see this for themselves.
Scholar wrote: No , the connection between both period is grounded within the test such as the OG translation of Dan.4 which makes the connection explicit
There is no such "explicit" connection.
Scholar wrote: The prestigious commentary by Collins makes the point quite clear but as you do not do exegesis i understand why you fail to understand the matter,
Your eisegetical analysis and preferred commentary do nothing to prove a connection between the 70 years of Jeremiah, which applied to "these nations" and Daniel 4's "seven times" which applied to King Neb. You can't prove a connection exegetically, because there is none.

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

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