Tim

by teejay 44 Replies latest jw friends

crossroads

Yes, Six I've been a follower of a more EVIL man than
Koresh. He definitly killed more woman and children
than that man did. I think for a time you did the same, his
name FRED FRANZ-I don't know Six as far as evil goes
that man is right on top of my list.
My brother is right I hate injustice and prejudice,
no more "a turn the other cheek"kinda guy are you
gonna find than me.
I knew my comments would not be taken well, actually
I was hoping for more outrage. My point is if WE see evil
We should do are best to stop it. I believe this broad
could do great things-but instead of trying to stop the
evil we know about we either wine about it or make jokes
A little story just to make show you were crossroads
comes from.
The great and powerful OZ decided it didn't like what
a certian leader had up his sleave. Rational decision
lets bomb the hell out of N.Y. oh sorry Baghdad even
more populated with innocent woman and children.
As I sat and watched the bombing of that city live on CNN.
I was feeding my 2-month old son. As I watched all I could
think about was another poor father doing the exact same
thing I was doing over in Baghdad.His crime he had an
Evil leader wether he had anything to do with that or not
I don't know and either did OZ. Yes I was the only one and
it deeply surprised me so the ONLY one at the little league
meeting that night that was sick about it. Maybe I think
of Lennon's "Imagine" more than most, but We not only
did nothing that night we ROOTED for OZ,
Peace and Love
Mark
teejay

SixofNine,
Just how worthless does a human have to be before you consider them
worthy of the above imagery?

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not the "God loves everybody" bleeding
heart Christian that you may think. At one time I was quite hawkish in my
political stance and I've not completely distanced myself from that
conservative point of view. But life has a funny way of humbling, and more
and more issues are not so cut and dried for me as they once were when I
was younger and knew so much more than now.
As I mentioned to mommy, I think McVeigh is a pathetic, sad, sorry
individual and I don't say it for many people, but it probably wouldn't been
best if he'd never been born. He still has not owned up to the evil he
committed on unsuspecting, totally innocent people, several of them
beautiful little children. His grievance with the U.S. government,
particularly over Waco and the Branch Davidians, has merit imo, but his
method of expressing his concerns were clearly wrong.
Still, I could mention others who, imo, more closely favor the Devil, or the
common depiction of him. For example, there was a documentary on HBO
a couple of weeks ago about a man, one Melvin Just, who for decades
sexually abused about a dozen little girls who were defenseless against him.
It's even likely that he murdered a social worker who discovered his
wickedness and was about to step in as the children's savior.
Imo, that is evil incarnate. Someone who knows exactly what he is
doing and continues unabated, without pangs of conscience, causing hurt
and unmitigated suffering on others -- a virtual hell on earth. Mr. Just died,
but sure as I'm living, others just like him are perpetrating the same evil
right this very moment. To me, people like that don't hold a candle to
McVeigh. There comes a time to kill, and if I had to choose only one, I'd
send a Melvin Just to his maker a lot quicker than a Tim McVeigh. It would
be a very easy choice.
peace,
todd
SixofNine

Not sure how to take this exchange, Crossroads. Maybe that song is right, lol.
his
name FRED FRANZ-I don't know Six as far as evil goes
that man is right on top of my list.
Just my opinion, and I am no fan of Franz (the "evil" one anyway), but to put him, or any sincere JW, at the top of your evil list, tells me that maybe your evil meter needs to go back to Rightous Brothers Instrumentation for a recalibration.
As followers of an org, we were all given a good mind f***. The women and children who followed Koresh, were f***ed in a much more literal sense.
Fred Franz may have been impatient with God while waiting for armaggedon, but David Koresh had no intention of waiting. Armageddon was going to be an attack on him, and there was going to be bloodshed and fire involved.
SixofNine

Imo, that is evil incarnate. Someone who knows exactly what he is
doing and continues unabated, without pangs of conscience, causing hurt
and unmitigated suffering on others -- a virtual hell on earth.

Sounds like a pretty good description of Tim McVeigh, illusions of grandeur or no.
There comes a time to kill, and if I had to choose only one, I'd
send a Melvin Just to his maker a lot quicker than a Tim McVeigh. It would
be a very easy choice.
Fortunately, there is no reason to just choose one.
teejay

SixofNine,
To crossroads you said:
>>>I hoped they would save the children even if it turned out to be at the expense
of a painful slow death for that evil pimple on the ass of humanity, David Koresh.
I followed the events at Waco pretty closely. I remember a news report
about exactly who this Koresh fella was. At one point a bible study was
shown with Koresh leading it. I swear, chills came over me, because, except
for the casual style of dress of those in attendance, it could've been any
Tuesday night Bookstudy -- about 15 - 18 people sitting around a living
room, 'studying' the bible. Seeing that news clip only helped quicken my exit
from where I was respective the organization. Koresh was far, far, far from
unique as one who saw (sees) himself as a "chosen one", "messenger" or
"seer." As crossroads accurately pointed out, most of us here have been
victimized in one way or another by a select group who, just like Koresh,
really believe that they and they alone speak for the Divine. And the world
is full of people who are ever ready to kneel and such one's feet, doing
obeisance in a variety of ways.
>>>Those children are dead because of one man, David Koresh, and
>>>because of that one man's followers.
Of course, that is a very simplistic conclusion to draw to what happened to
the innocents at Waco. Did the driver of the tank that breathed fire into the
compound bear NO responsibility? How about the person giving the order?
How about the FBI Director or his boss, Janet Reno? How about the man at
the very top, Clinton? Do these ones bear NO bloodguilt or is it really just
Koresh and the parents who chose to believe him?
However you answer, I didn't mean for my original post to descend into a
political debate of the rightness or wrongness of the actions of humans,
rightly motivated or not. My original post wasn't really about the humans
who were involved in the Blast but rather it being another in an ever-growing
list of examples pointing to the lack of any real evidence supporting the
belief that God has a present, living concern for the human family. One day
we may reach a consensus on the relative good or evil of McVeigh, Koresh,
the governing body, etc., but that doesn't answer the Big Question.
peace,
todd
teejay

thank you, wasasister.
You are right, it was an ugly time in American History and
I'm afraid that many people still live with the ugliness to this day.
To see people get choked up the way they do when recalling the
event or the person they lost...
I know it's such a small event when you consider the overwhelming
misery that has been experienced over the centuries, but it's someting
that I had been thinking about and thought I'd put pen to paper.
peace,
todd
SixofNine

. I swear, chills came over me, because, except
for the casual style of dress of those in attendance, it could've been any
Tuesday night Bookstudy -- about 15 - 18 people sitting around a living
room, 'studying' the bible.

I can only say that you could only have seen a very limited snippet of David Koresh's theatrics then. No reasonable person would compare the Branch Davidian experience with the Witness experience except in the most broad, general sense. I saw plenty of David Koresh that could never be confused with a tuesday night bookstudy.
Of course, that is a very simplistic conclusion to draw to what happened to
the innocents at Waco. Did the driver of the tank that breathed fire into the
compound bear NO responsibility? How about the person giving the order?
How about the FBI Director or his boss, Janet Reno? How about the man at
the very top, Clinton? Do these ones bear NO bloodguilt or is it really just
Koresh and the parents who chose to believe him?
If there is a fire at the front door, you go out the back door. David Koresh made sure those people were on their way to heaven. No one was getting out alive. It was totally his and his followers responsibility.
All those other people you mentioned, were put in that situation by David Koresh. There were NO easy answers, and NO good solutions. Had it been my baby from day one, before the intitial confrontation, sure, I like to think I would have handled it differently. But to blame the government for David Koresh's insanity and God-complex (and he did consider himself a God) is insane. To whine about mistakes they made in a horrible situation, a situation no one has ever been in prior, btw, is just patently silly. Evaluate? yes. Look for ways they could have done better? sure. Bitch? no. Blow up innocent people? Hell no.
Here is some advice, take it or leave it. You want to talk about government conspiracies around the campfire? Go find yourself a real one, I'm sure there are a few. But if you find yourself "taking up", even subtly, for a christ complexed demigod child molester and Jim Jones wannabe, or the single biggest mass murderer in United States history (who is just "taking up" for a christ complexed demigod child molester/Jim Jones wannabe), don't be surprised if many people think you are on the wrong track. In fact, don't be too surprised if your 'take' on the matter leaves some of us a bit angry and sick to our stomach.
it being another in an ever-growing
list of examples pointing to any real evidence supporting the belief that God
has a present, living concern for the human family.
Sorry, I didn't really get that from your original post. Did you mean "pointing to a lack of any real evidence..."? If so, I would tend to agree. Although I have been wondering if perhaps it may not be within His power to just snap his fingers and make everything peachy.
patio34

Teejay,
I'm responding to your original post as to where is God when these things happen.
Others feel free to offer their religious views, so I'm offering my nascent views: there is no supernatural being in charge of everything.
It is up to humans to administer justice. And, just as in nature, there are predators, so too in humans there are predatory people to be dealt with to limit their power and destructive ways.
So, it is pointless to lament the lack of action of a mythical being. Plus, it drains us of energy that is needed to help solve the problems.
The WTBS is the worst just sitting on the sidelines criticizing every blamed thing that EVERYONE does. What good has the WTBS EVER accomplished for anyone but their own sales force? Preach the good news? Oh yeah, that helps!
Once humans accept there is no magical being to solve the problems, they can be liberated from an anachronistic belief and get to work!
Crossroads: As Phillip Roth once said "There's no arguing with logic like that."
Patio
mommy

Here is some advice, take it or leave it. You want to talk about government conspiracies around the campfire? Go find yourself a real one, I'm sure there are a few. But if you find yourself "taking up", even subtly, for a christ complexed demigod child molester and Jim Jones wannabe, or the single biggest mass murderer in United States history (who is just "taking up" for a christ complexed demigod child molester/Jim Jones wannabe), don't be surprised if many people think you are on the wrong track. In fact, don't be too surprised if your 'take' on the matter leaves some of us a bit angry and sick to our stomach.

I for one will not "take up" for anyone in those terms Six, but I will say this. What is it that seperates some of us from going over the edge? What makes some of us murder and others not? Can you honestly say you will never be in a predicament where you will not cross the line?
And what happens on that day you cross the line? Should we all just spit you out as evil and unworthy of life? Come on...you are still SixofNine.
wendy
teejay

SixofNine,
>>As followers of an org, we were all given a good mind f***. The women
>>and children who followed Koresh, were f***ed in a much more literal sense.
I get your point and don't disagree with it totally. I know you didn't say it
exactly this way, but the inference that JWs suffered only mentally while the
Davidians paid with their bodies and their lives is not completely accurate,
as you know.
JWs who followed the edicts of the Society have suffered in many ways --
psychologically, emotionally, even physically (with their bodies and
even their lives--read organ transplants & blood transfusions). Obviously rape
has never been a part of the equation, at least on the part of the leadership
(as far as we know), but it has been tolerated, if not encouraged, by its
treatment (or lack thereof) of known pedophiles in congregations all over
the world. So, the number of potential victims in the Koresh movement pale
in comparison next to the number of Witness children who have been left
unprotected and adult women who have been 'raped' by lecherous men in
the guise of a Judicial Committee.
>>Fred Franz may have been impatient with God while waiting for
>>armaggedon, but David Koresh had no intention of waiting. Armageddon
>>was going to be an attack on him, and there was going to be bloodshed
>>and fire involved.
… or so goes the claim of the conquerors, who always write the history books.
peace,
todd

Tim

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