by wovy 39 Replies latest jw experiences
hi. First post on here and just a basic inquiry before I get in to the meat of my problem. Question is "Is this a good forum to discuss problems I have dating a Jehovah's Witness?" I am not a Witness and wonder what I have gotten myself into. All direction is much appreciated.
Wovy
Hi Wovy,
Nice to hear from you, and the answer to your question would be yes. There are a few people in the forums who are in the same circumstance as you I believe. So welcome to the forums!
Cheers DK
Welcome Wovy,
We have many people on this board that have been in the same situation. I don't know your story so I can't really give you any advice, but I recommend you stick around. This is a great place to learn about JW's.
Liquidsky
Here are some links to related topics on this forum.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/20/42553/1.ashx
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/20/45099/1.ashx
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/20/42938/1.ashx
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/20/40272/1.ashx
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/20/36451/1.ashx
Liquidsky
Thanks. Look out because this is a long one.
Hey wovy,
Don't worry. I am(have been) were you are. Its definately different on the outside looking in. Read some of posts to get my story, whenever you're ready I'll be here to lend my ear.
Chris
wovy-
I was a Jehovah's Witness when I started dating an atheist. I kept it a secret at first, but eventually he helped my see how wrong the religion was and I eventually left and we got married. Now we are living happily ever after. . . .
Yes this is the place to get help with anything Witness. As for dating a Witness RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maverick
Welcome Wovy, It's good you are "wondering". Wonder some more. Just think, you are visiting a forum that restricts hurtful or distasteful posts, and is full of interesting, kind and compassionate people, yet your friend would not want you to be here. What does that tell you? JamesT
Well, here goes. All replies are are appreciated.
Thanks for the reply. Now I am in the right place I’ll tell my story and hopefully get some answers.
Almost two years ago I met a girl who is a JW. I had only come to America two years previously and had a hard time settling in and forming relationships. It didn’t help that my (American) wife divorced me just three months after arriving. I am from the UK and my opinion was that it would just be like the UK but with funny accents. I didn’t date for a few months after the divorce but when I did I met a few loons. I made a conscious effort after meeting about 5-6 women to back off anytime I was approached. That’s just the basic background. I am 36, my girlfriend is 31.
So, when this girl at work started hitting on me my instinct was to back away. She was married and I found out she was a JW. I am in a business where I travel A LOT and always with a “partner”. Well, by the end of the trip we had got “together” but only after we had discussed her marriage and how it was on its last legs due to her husband’s cheating. This in turn had led to her fooling around a bit too. Nothing on a grand scale, just your obvious, trapped woman in a marriage stuff. We finished our 5-day trip and went our separate ways. She then started pursuing me and immediately left her husband. Long overdue in my opinion. I was very attracted to her and in the space of a few weeks she was living with her family, had filed for divorce and she and I had become an “item”. In secret of course. That was the beginning and I have left out a lot detail of how we met and how we eventually ended up as an “item” just for the sake of my sore hands. I know it all looks a bit suspect but it is basically the truth, if you’ll pardon the pun.
Once we agreed we were dating I laid out a few rules, the main one being the secrecy stop as soon as possible. She told me the possible ramifications of dating me for her regards her religion but assured me she was willing to take whatever came her way when the truth was eventually out. This was early June 2001!
By early December we had gone through so many arguments and nothing was penetrating. I had basically financed her divorce and was paying rent on “our” apartment which I didn’t live in yet. She wanted to ease me in for the sake of the two children. I saw no problem with that at first but as time went on it became too much. So, early December 2001 I called her father. He of course had no idea who I was. Told him I had been dating his daughter for six months and wanted to speak with him. He agreed and he showed up with her mother.
The plan was to schmooze them for an hour over some food. They would see what a nice guy I am and see they’re daughter would be fine. As you all probably know, it did not go that smoothly. The main point of interest to father was how “serious” we were. By serious he of course wanted to know if we were shagging or not. I saw no need to tell him seeing as he asked me in such a weasely way. All I told him, repeatedly, was that I was serious enough to marry his daughter if needs be. He then went on about how Jehovah would provide a hubby for her, given time. I told him that Jehovah had already provided one who turned out to be an abusive, alcoholic womanizer and maybe someone else might give it a go. He didn’t take too kindly to this as you can probably imagine and there ended the “meeting”. He then drove off to confront his daughter who basically wormed her way out of it with a bunch of half-answers and denials. She and I then had brief falling out, but after a week or so she called and said she was ready to lay it all out soon and would I go back to her. I did. I did miss her terribly and thought that maybe now a lot of things were out in the open we might come through it together.
Well, that lasted all of a week or so and by Xmas we had fallen out again over the same stuff. She called Boxing Day pleading her case again and said she would come clean and would I now move into the (my) apartment. At last! I said of course I would but then I told her that we should wait just a week or so. My thought was that just moving in was a bit of whammy and to do it slowly as I did have concerns about the kids and her parents. But seeing as it was now fixed in her mind for me to wait a little longer was no problem. The week turned to a month!
Before I knew it it was early February and we were still nowhere. The inevitable argument followed, we broke up, I went on a trip and she called me. She was pregnant! “Well, there’s an end to the lies” was one of her phrases. I asked her what she wanted to do. She said there was nothing she could do but have the baby as abortion is out of the question. I got home about a week later, we had very little time to see each other and we were supposed to discuss what we were going to do. By this time health issues had been raised as to how she could handle another pregnancy. She had hypertension blood pressure and her second pregnancy she had suffered from Preeclampsia. We did have a brief discussion on whether it was a good idea to have the baby or not but nothing was decided. I was back a few days later. We were to decide “what to do” but we were both in favor of keeping it no matter what. I went to her apartment and instead of us discussing it she lay watching TV! There was apparently nothing to discuss. This really pissed me off and I walked out. This too then left the question open as to what to do. While I was gone on a trip she went to the abortion clinic. An ultrasound showed TWO babies and she called me while my phone was off because she wanted to know what I thought. She then went ahead and got rid of them!
You can say what you want about both of us not being adult enough to make the other sit down and talk it out but for my part I was tired of having to sit down and make things happen. I never thought she would do that though. In a strange way it brought us a bit closer together after we realized what a mistake we had made. I also built up a lot of resentment toward her religion as I was of the opinion (and still am) that the cloak and dagger lifestyles of JWs contributed to the abortion. Again, I am in no way trying to absolve my responsibility here but she had nowhere to turn with the pregnancy except to me. Tell her and parents and what, they will banish her? What kind of thinking is that? I thought we were all on this world to help each other. Here’s the really strange thing. Her mother knew she was pregnant. Once it all came out ( as you will soon see) her mother took her aside and point blank asked her, about two weeks after the abortion, “Are you pregnant?” My girlfriend replied, “I was but I miscarried”.
This brings me to another thing. I believe to this day that her parents know we are still seeing each other but choose to ignore it just so long as the JW community at large doesn’t know and face is saved. Am I being ridiculous in such thoughts?
To continue. Fueled by the disaster of the abortion and her agreement that her lifestyle played a major part in the (wrong) decision she, at last, started to open up to “the Brothers” and accept her punishment. What we agreed would happen would be that she would be disfellowshipped, her family would disown her for a few months, she could then go back and sit at the back of the class and after a year or so would again be restored to a point of “good standing”. Worse case scenario is that she is kicked out and disowned by all forever, a fate she said she deserved and that would be tolerable as we would be together. OK, I can live with that.
So, she goes to about three meetings where she lays out the details of our relationship, admits we have been having sex for about a year but stops short of telling them about the abortion. While she is at her final “sentencing” I go for a drive. She calls me that night and asks me to come over as we need to speak. I head over expecting her to be distraught. She isn’t. Her first question is “What do you think about us not having sex?” “Why” I asked her. She then tells me that she ISN’T DISFELLOWSHIPPED and that she has to practice her religion “harder” to get back into God’s good grace!!! I could not believe this. Not only was she not disfellowshipped but the Brothers were kind of OK about seeing each other as long as we weren’t breaking any other rules. I went F#@!!&* ballistic. Just hours before we were discussing our future and now it had been turned on its head. The Brothers probably didn’t know it but this was the sneakiest most under-handed way they could have dealt with this.
My problem was that I am serious about life and my relationships and saw this as a schoolyard prank. Was she really telling me that we refrain from the old “in-out” and a wave of the magic wand and a sprinkle of spacedust and it might be all OK! Where do these people get this stuff? Is that really the criteria for getting into Heaven? Another problem was I was expecting a whole “This is what they said” speech. Even getting all that info before getting hit with “What do you think about not having sex?” would have gotten a very different reaction. But for me, after a year of this stuff, the pressure was just too much and when ask that dumb question, straight out, after a year of having sex anyway…well, it was just too much.
I stormed out of the house, called her father and told him what a clown he was. I also told him he was accepting half-truths from his daughter in order for him to look good (he’s an elder!) and that no matter what he thought was happening now or what he thought was happening in the future, I would be with his daughter at some point and she would now still be lying about it (As is happening now). I then called a Kingdom Hall. Not my best move in retrospect. It was done out of spite I admit, but also I needed, for once, to speak to who she was speaking to. I wanted to see just what was happening. I met with the same non-committal crap I had at lunch a few months previous. I was of course offered a bible study, but no counseling as such. However, in this discussion I did lay out other aspects of our relationship. This guy knew my girlfriend but did nothing with the information. I didn’t mention the abortion though, as even at that stage that would have been too far. I was just amazed that even though I was filling in the blanks she had left out at her hearings, they wanted no part of it. I hear a lot about keeping the “church” pure, but they took no action as it might have caused a scandal for certain people.
My girlfriend wasn’t too happy either and cut off all contact with me, but it was only a matter of weeks before we were talking again. Then we had no sex for a month while she was “getting back to God”. By no sex I mean no intercourse. We had oral sex all the time. That eventually led to intercourse. I asked her how God felt now and she shrugged.
We at the same time came to an agreement that I don’t see her kids for the time being and I don’t push her to be open. I figured that I pushed and pushed and pushed and it had ended in relative disaster and this time I would just let the cards fall as they may. To a point. That was about last May.
Now we are a year on. I have not seen the kids. We work together and are a couple at work. Everybody knows this. All my friends know we are a couple. Her family does not. We live a decent little routine now of seeing each other while at work and away for sometimes up to five days and during week days while home and the kids are in care. I don’t see her at night and never on weekends. She attends Kingdom Hall every Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday when home. When not doing that she is out with me, having a good time in a restaurant, bar or club or back at our hotel room or out at my house. This has all been fine but we still argue over little things. The pressure of living like makes things like not being able to get her on her cellphone or just the regular little things all the more intolerable in my mind.
This brings me to my present predicament. For the past few months we have been living on the assumption that I will move to Florida from Ohio. We both want to live there and she has said many times, “You go and I will follow” which will be an end to all the nonsense. I believe she knows her family’s stranglehold on her is stronger than the JWs. Maybe they are one and the same. About two weeks ago we had a blow out over a stupid little thing. I was however working away after that, then I was training and she was on vacation with her whole family. We didn’t speak much and when we did it was a brief argument. Well, now she has decided that she can no longer do this and wants to call it all off. Although that is heart-breaking it will not be the end of it. As usual, we will end up back together. How do I know this? Well our conversation today went something like this…
“Blah, blah, blah…we’re done. Really, I can’t do this anymore. I don’t know if I can ever tell my parents. Etc, etc, etc.”
“That’s makes me sad. Are you sure?”
“Yes. I hold you back from doing so many things. Like, you still aren’t in Florida. That could have been our break but you won’t do it because you don’t want to leave me.”
“Not true. I have lined up a place, as of yesterday, for me to stay next week and scope the town out. If I like I can take it on a longer lease.”
This led to a silence. I actually thought she had hung up. But then she asks, “What kind of place?”
“I don’t know. What’s a condo?” (Remember, I’m from the UK) “It has two beds and a swimming pool.”
Now, knowing what I know I believe the silence was because she realized that I am serious about moving. The only reason I am still in Ohio is that I have spent most of my savings on ensuring she and her kids are taken care of (rent, car not being repossessed, etc) and haven’t dealt with my credit card debt and therefore cannot get a mortgage at present that would allow me to find the kind of place I want. The fact that I had been making moves to make a move seemed to stun her a little. We are still “broken up” but we work together in about 5 days time and are gone for about 4 days together. You know what will happen.
Now, please put aside all thoughts of our personalities and what you may think of both of us. I know I have made mistakes and given the chance all over again I would run a mile or make sure the truth was out from day one. For her part, well brainwashing springs to mind. She makes a series of bad decisions with, I believe, her religion the root of most of them. But, in between all the bad things you have read are great, great times. We just got away on vacation for a week and guess what. No family, no religion and we had a wonderful time. Not one disagreement.
As I said, please put aside any opinions you may have of us as I missed out many facts and just put in the bad parts. I need advice, as I have no idea how to proceed. Let me tell you what I think might happen and you tell me if I’m wrong. I think, that given time, sooner or later the truth will come out and that after a few months of whatever her family will make the adjustments (as all people do) to accept the unacceptable. Her mother even went so far as to ask her not to elope a year ago, the underlying message being she did not want to miss a wedding.
My girlfriend’s opinion is that she will be cut off forever. Is she right? I don’t believe this for the following reasons.
First, I believe her family knows we are still seeing each other. They know we work and travel together and stay in the same hotel. I mean, are JWs that naive? I believe the last time when it all came out provisions were made not to punish her as she should be. I mean correct me if I’m wrong, but a woman, still married and having sex with another is 100% sure of disfellowship? Her parents are also very attached to the children and, a year ago, they were very worried about not seeing them. Oh, and her mother is her stepmother. Her real mother, who is a JW, knew about us and didn’t ask a single question. Just turned a blind eye!
On top of all of that, all her friends are divorced because one or the other was cheating. Her husband was having an affair with her best friend, also a JW. This shows more than an underlying trend of hypocrisy (there, I said it), which I think leads to a willingness to turn the other cheek when things like your daughter dating outside the religion are happening.
Let me also say, crazy as it makes me, I have no desire to draw her away from the religion or her family. I suppose the whole point of my post is that two years down the road I am still no closer to understanding why we can’t all be friends.
I have tried reading “Apocalypse Delayed” but find it tough going. I am not a big reader and don’t know my bible. I think that I’m a nice person, I help whomever I can and if that can’t see me into heaven then there’s not a whole lot I can do about. Reading Apoc Del just makes me mad and I have to put it down. I don’t whether it’s the sheer blatant dictatorship that JW leadership is that makes me mad, or that some guy kicking around in the 1800s spouting a pile of crap is now affecting my life so much.
I’ll end with a little tale of something. I presented, a few months back, some print out from a website that disagreed with JW teachings. This was something about the destruction of Jerusalem. It said it occurred xxxB.C. but JW teaching was that it happened xxxB.C. I had no clue what it was all about but I was a mission to have my girlfriend read a differing point of view and seeing as I was not best placed to do so I showed her stuff from the Net. This one print out freaked her out. She got all upset, saying “This is not true.” I asked what the big deal was and she explained that if they were wrong about the date of the Destruction of Jerusalem then it was all wrong. I told her that is something like I had been trying to tell her. She said however that she did not believe the print out and wanted independent evidence. I asked what she wanted and she said she needed to see it in an encyclopedia. I asked which one and she said Britannica. I showed it to her. She then asked for another. I showed her that. She searched the net and the only corroborating “evidence” was on JW websites. This troubled her greatly. She asked her father who really didn’t have an answer (her words) and that was that. I asked her a few weeks ago if she ever followed up and she said she didn’t. If you are the mother of two growing children and you find such a question that troubling, shouldn’t you be looking for answers if you want them to follow in your footsteps?
I’m sure I’ve missed a whole lot of stuff here and my ramblings may not make much sense but I look forward to your replies and thank you for any help in advance.
Wovy
