Just reporting Halcon, I don't agree with Charles Taze Russell, just commenting what was going on historically with the Watchtower society, Just reporting not supporting.
What is really Babylon the great?
by Halcon 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
Halcon
Of course blondie I understood that : )
The catholic church is an easy target (altho I'm not catholic) for its sheer magnitude of size and history. And it has its share of wicked individuals...as all Christian churches do. But it's in clear opposition to the devil and the antichrist. So it's hard to argue that it's Babylon the great.
-
Jeffro
Rome. Specifically, first century Rome. It’s not hard.
-
Halcon
Rome. Specifically, first century Rome. It’s not hard.
Yes, first century pagan Rome fit the description as aqwsed already pointed out, during the time of the apostles.
But what about today?
-
Jeffro
“Babylon the Great” in Revelation represents ancient Rome, and first century Christians could readily identify “Babylon the Great”—‘riding a seven-headed beast’ that explicitly represent “seven mountains”—as Rome when Revelation was first written. However, because the grandiose finale presented in Revelation did not come to fruition near the time of writing, various religious groups (including Jehovah’s Witnesses) have superstitiously proposed other ‘identities’ to extend Revelation’s ‘fulfilment’ beyond the ancient Roman era. In reality, it doesn’t actually mean anything for ‘our day’.
Jehovah’s Witnesses (and some others) assert that “Babylon the Great” is not a “political power” on the basis that Revelation 17:2 says it has “immoral relations” with the “kings of the earth”. However, the Roman Empire oversaw various subordinate client kingdoms, each with its own ‘king’. (Judea was itself one such client kingdom, under the jurisdiction of Herod, who is described as a king at Matthew 2:3 and Mark 6:14 using the same Greek term as at Revelation 17:2—basileus, βασιλεύς, Strong’s G935.) Revelation 17:18 accurately describes “Babylon the Great”—that is, ancient Rome—as a city with a kingdom over other kings. The identification of “Babylon the Great” as “the mother of the prostitutes” alludes to the purported licentiousness in Rome being reflected in the empire’s other cities and Revelation 18:3, 9 suggests that the “immorality” of “Babylon the Great” refers to Rome’s interactions with its client kingdoms.
Rome is called “Babylon the Great” in Revelation as an analogy comparing the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army in 70 CE with the prior destruction of the city by Nebuchadnezzar II in 587 BCE. Revelation 18:4–5 therefore warned first century Christians to get out of ‘Babylon’ (that is, ancient Rome).
The Greek term pharmakeia (φαρμακεία, Strong’s G5331) at Revelation 18:23, generally rendered as sorcery, magic or witchcraft refers to the use of drugs or poisons (used in the verse as a metaphor) and the only connection with ‘spiritism’ is a superstitious ignorance of biochemistry.
-
joey jojo
If you read revelation from start to finish it seems pretty obvious that it is Rome and the wild beast is the Roman empire.
-
Halcon
Interesting points jeffro.
However, the scriptures deal with spirituality first (history afterwards)...and clearly the conflict between God and the devil didn't end with Jerusalem and Rome in the first century.
The Greek word pharmakeia is a big clue, as sorcery and witchcraft could be argued is more prevalent today than ever before. It also further argues in favor of the point that Babylon the great has nothing to do with any Christian church.
-
Jeffro
Halcon:
However, the scriptures deal with spirituality first (history afterwards)
No, this type of apocalyptic literature describes historical (then recent and contemporary) events through a religious lens and asserts hypothetical future responses by their preferred deity.
clearly the conflict between God and the devil didn't end with Jerusalem and Rome in the first century.
Refer to second half of my first paragraph.
The Greek word pharmakeia is a big clue, as sorcery and witchcraft could be argued is more prevalent today than ever before.
No. You are simply imposing a modern concept of ‘pharmacy’ on top of the original meaning and usage of the word.
It also further argues in favor of the point that Babylon the great has nothing to do with any Christian church.
At least you got that bit right.
-
Halcon
Jeffro, refer to my statement you quoted.
-
Jeffro
Halcon:
Jeffro, refer to my statement you quoted.
Yes, your view is an example of superstitious attempts to make the failed predictions remain relevant. Instead of acknowledging that they were simply wrong, these attempts try to salvage the failed interpretations by reinterpreting them, almost always with unfalsifiable claims involving vague symbolism, conveniently invisible ‘fulfilments’, and remaining failures as ‘still in the future’.