while ignoring not only reason but also the contradictory faith of others.
Hehehe...I literally keep referencing the faith of those against Christ...
Again, you cannot understand what I'm even asking in this thread...
What is really Babylon the great?
by Halcon 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Halcon
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Anony Mous
@Vanderhoven: since I learned that Revelation really was talking about the Roman Empire and not as much about Jerusalem (as it had been destroyed 20-30 years prior to its writing). Christianity was still mostly recently converted Jews trying to look for an explanation as to why their promised land got destroyed and thus a new theology developed.
Most scholars accept that 666 refers to Nero, Babylon the Great refers to those that recently destroyed the Temple, aka Rome, the repeated number 7 (hills, heads etc) refers to the physical Rome (which has and evolved from settlements on the surrounding 7 hills), 10 horns = patchwork of (10) local rulers in and around Judea in the first century (eg. Herodians) as clients of Rome.
You can understand pretty much all of Revelations as a political commentary against Rome and classical Judaism from an early Christian-Jewish perspective. It is thinly veiled, with a bit of historical context, you can still get most of the references, but back then it would be even better understood, probably not a very popular guy in his day, pissing off both exiled Jews and Romans.
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Jeffro
Halcon:
Essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc. All things practiced in ancient Babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in Revelation).
Or is this too simple of an explanation?
It is no explanation at all. It is conspicuously vague, and where it is specific, it is factually incorrect.
Babylon was used as a metaphor for Rome because Babylon had previously destroyed Jerusalem, and Rome did something similar. (This also invalidates the separate claim that 'Babylon the Great' was Jerusalem, as Jerusalem had already been destroyed when Revelation was written.)
You attribute far too much significance to the use of the term 'pharmakeia', which Revelation does not give as the primary identifier of 'Babylon the Great', and is properly seen as a metaphor for Rome's influence over its client kingdoms.
Also, although the Babylonians were polytheists, their deities were viewed as more capricious rather than each being definitively 'good' or 'evil', and they didn't practice 'devil worship' (a later concept introduced via Persian Zoroastrianism). And although they (and the early Jews with their 'Urim and Thummim') practiced divination, it wasn't 'witchcraft'.
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Halcon
You attribute far too much significance to the use of the term 'pharmakeia'
According to the scriptures (a huge part of the old testament actually), why did God previously destroy Jerusalem?
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Jeffro
According to the scriptures (a huge part of the old testament actually), why did God previously destroy Jerusalem?
Jerusalem was destroyed because its king refused to submit to Babylon. Which is what 'the scriptures' say (Jeremiah 27:8-11, though it is re-framed in a religious context), and is consistent with what actually happened.
The other scriptures that you 'want' to refer to are further superstitious attempts to frame what happened due to 'divine punishment', but they are ad hoc rationalisations retroactively presented as 'prophecy'.
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Halcon
Are you sure?
Go back a little farther to Jeremiah chapter 15- "I will make all of the kingdoms on earth hate them. That will happen because of what Manasseh did in Jerusalem. He was king of Judah and the son of Hezekiah."
Any idea what Manasseh did?
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Jeffro
The other scriptures that you 'want' to refer to are further superstitious attempts to frame what happened due to 'divine punishment', but they are ad hoc rationalisations retroactively presented as 'prophecy'.
Any idea what Manasseh did?
The Israelites were, in reality, originally just another one of the Canaanite tribes, and it is unsurprising that they practiced the same types of religious practices (which weren't Babylonian). Gradually, the Jews diverged into a form of monotheism, elevating their local deity from among the Canaanite pantheon. None of this is actually why Babylon destroyed Jerusalem though.
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Halcon
Jeffro-The other scriptures that you 'want' to refer to are further superstitious attempts to frame what happened due to 'divine punishment', but they are ad hoc rationalisations retroactively presented as 'prophecy'
All good and dandy, but let's stick to actual scripture and limit external commentary. Any idea what Manasseh did?
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Halcon
The Israelites were, in reality, originally just another one of the Canaanite tribes.
Not according to scripture....
None of this is actually why Babylon destroyed Jerusalem though.
But what does the Bible say?
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Jeffro
Any idea what Manasseh did?
I've already touched on that. Manasseh practiced a form of Canaanite worship (which included child sacrifice), because the Jews were originally Canaanites. It wasn't Babylonian religion, and the Babylonians didn't practice child sacrifice. But keep digging. 🥱