by Fisherman 162 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Van all you are doing is reasserting your one sided view without considering the verses referenced in my posts.
I already responded to your belief that once you are saved that you cannot lose that salvation or need to do anything for it.— Unless you turn to doing evil which your explanation would be not being saved to begin with. I am not going to repeat my same argument again or flood this post by quoting the entire Bible here.
Kindly,F
Why not provide quotations rather than just references to demonstrate that your verses actually confirm WT conclusions.
Hi Van,
I cited the verses instead of quoting them. I also explained and responded to your argument.
WT never teaches that salvation can be earned by works of “theocratic services”. Such works are like sacrifices to God like that of the early christians helping people with the good news and knowledge of the Messianic kingdom but such works do not replace obedience and the practice of love (although theocratic service and works is evidence of love). —The verses in Mark I cited explain the standard doe salvation and christian living is an application of the that standard to the higher degree that Jesus enjoined on christians on the sermon on the mount. We @ JW practice christianity by our interpretation of Bible principles and also by our theocratic works. But ultimately salvation is a free gift of God that we can never merit.
“Salvation we OWE to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
while the deity was obsessed with the later law of an eye or an eye in the ransom arrangement, conveniently was forgotten the principle that children should not be punished for misdeeds of their parents, yet meting out the death penalty to billions of unsuspecting newborn.
With mutations in the creator's quiver of creation tools, this quick genetic fix could have avoided that miscarriage of justice of killing all his human children for the sake of a missing fruit.
Fisherman think about it, we are not a flawed creation, " and it was good)". evolved just fine.
we do not need salvation except from the looming environmental and weapons disasters of our making.
Re.11:18 --- come.
<<But ultimately salvation is a free gift of God that we can never merit>>
If that's the case, why are you "working hard for the reward of eternal life"? https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1972602#
Salvation And Its Benefits Are Gifts Of God
SALVATION A GIFT
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
JUSTIFICATION A GIFT
Romans 3:22b-25a… for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
Roman's 5:18 Therefore by the offense of one judgment cam upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
ADOPTIVE SONSHIP A GIFT
John_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 8:15-17 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (also Galatians 3:26)
Galatians 4:4-6 4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
ETERNAL LIFE A GIFT
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1John_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
FORGIVENESS A GIFT
Romans_5:18 And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.
Ephesians 1:7 “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.”
Eph. 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
RIGHTEOUSNESS A GIFT
Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:23-25 Now it was not written for his (Abraham's) sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.
HOLY SPIRIT A GIFT
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Fisherman, have you received the gift of: salvation, justification, forgiveness, righteousness, sonship, Holy Spirit, and eternal life? These are immediate benefits belonging to every Christian alive today. Real Christians are not working for; they are working because of God's unmerited favor.
1Jn_5:11,13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son....13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
But it seems that your organization does not want you to believe the Bible.
"It is to the Spirit anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian-Greek scriptures is directed, including the promise of everlasting life. WT, June 15, 1974
Instead they will grant you eternal life if you associate with their organization and work hard for that reward.
"Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part ofit." (Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12 )
If that's the case, why are you "working hard for the reward of eternal life"?
I’ve already answered that.
@Fisherman
Perhaps to your satisfaction. A gift does not require work. Gifts are received freely out of the grace of the giver.
As many as received Jesus became sons of God. John 1:12. But of course this verse does not apply to 8 million Jehovah's Witness orphans who must work for 1000 years in the hope that they finally will be adopted by a prospective Father.
Watchtower salvation is not biblical salvation. It's man-made salvation promised by men to those who find the right organization, believe in and follow the directions of its leaders and serve the organization to perhaps qualify to survive Armageddon.
More on topic, as I see it, the 1914 generation, those who actually saw the events of 1914 and understood them are long dead.
Perhaps to your satisfaction.
You don’t need to like the answer, only need to challenge it not by repeating the same assertions over and over again. As if by filibuster would validate you belief by reasserting your position and not by rebuttal.
The scriptures provided are the rebuttal to Watchtower salvation.
What I don't see in scripture is
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and associate with an organization with headquarters in New York and work hard for your gift of salvation.
Vanderhoven7, people often only give gifts to people who have acted in certain ways to them. Though no one earned the gifts, the givers often choose to give only to those whom he/she has a favorable opinion of - while at the same time believing that those people did no earn the gifts. Parts of the Bible give the impression of teaching that God acts similarly. The Letter to the Hebrews teaches that faith without words is dead, and it teaches that those who have faith will have works which accompany the faith.
Part of the Bible are figuratively 'at war' with other parts of the Bible, and even parts of the NT are figuratively 'at war' with other parts of the NT. This shows that the Bible is entirely the book of humans and not the book of God. Some of the human writers of the Bible were disagreeing with some other human writers of the Bible, and they were trying to contradict the words of each other. Even some individual books of the Bible contradict themselves, and thus show evidence of being edited to include an opposing view. In other words, some people dared to add words (stating an opposing message) to existing books of the Bible, even to words attributed to Jesus! That is despite warnings like that found in Revelation 22:18-19!
Though parts of the NT say that the salvation of Christians are assured (provided they believe in Christ as their savior), other parts of the NT say it is not guaranteed, but that Christians must also act in a godly and holy manner in order to be saved.
In the story about Noah's Ark, Noah and his family had to build the Ark and enter it in order to be saved. Likewise according to the story, anyone else who wanted to be saved had to exercise faith by entering the Ark. According to the Gospel attributed as being according to Matthew, when the son of man comes, it will be as in the days of Noah. That same gospel claims that Jesus told his disciples that they need to keep on the watch for his return. If they were already eternally saved, why were told they have to keep on the watch?
2 Peter chapter 2 speaks of those who "escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but who later became overcome by that which they had escaped from. Verse 21 (NASB Updated) says that for those who were overcome that "it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."
2 Peter chapter 3 makes reference to the flood of Noah's day of the day of the Lord (though the 1984 NWT says "Jehovah's day") coming as a thief and that as a result Christians are be a people who are "in holy conduct and godliness" (see verse 11) and be "looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells" (see verse 13). Verses 14-15 (NASB Updated) say "Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation ...".
Revelation 22:12-15 claims that Jesus says he will give a reward to each one as his work is. The book says that Jesus says that those who wash their robes will receive access to the trees of life and entrance into the city. Revelation also says that Jesus says that those outside of the city are "the dogs", those who practice spiritism, the fornicators, the murders, the idolaters, "and everyone liking and carrying on a lie". Verse 19 says there are some (those who take away from the words of the book of Revelation) whom "God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city" thus indicating is possible for some Christians to loose the prospect of salvation.
