by Fisherman 162 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
You have assumed a comparison that is not in the text.
No. That is why i cited Rev 5:10 and said compare. And don’t forget the rest of my argument. And don’t forget the New Jerusalem. Rev 5:10 validates a limited amount of Christians with the heavenly hope ruling over saved christians on earth not having the heavenly hope. More chiefs than indians is nonsensical. Obviously (axiomatically) there is a small flock of christians with the heavenly hope compared to the christians on earth.
Romans 5:10 provides no bases for concluding there are two kinds of Christians, a priestly class and a non-priestly class.
All Christians are called on to live holy lives that we might also be a "holy priesthood" (1 Peter 2:5). All believers are "kings and priests".
Every Christian according to the Bible is holy, justified, a child of God, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and shares in one hope. The scriptures are clear on what a Christian is and possess.
holy lives that we might also be a "holy priesthood
First remember to factor in all the other Bible verses I mentioned. Bringing in new scriptures don’t invalidate them or the fact that christians in heaven will rule with Christ as king priests over christians on earth. So, that establishes that not all christians have the heavenly hope.
There is zero need whatsoever for humans to go to heaven except to rule with Christ as king priests for a purpose and that purpose is to reconcile humans to God and to heal their sinful condition, etc. The office of priest is not for helping the angels. Angels don’t need priests.
God never intended humans to die or go to heaven either or for Jesus to become human, etc. The whole thing including some humans going to heaven is God’s remedy to fix the problem on earth: sin, death, suffering by means of the “Messianic kingdom”. God did not change his mind about creating the earth and having humans living on it and humans eating from the tree of life. It just so happens that ONLY christians are saved so that debunks any argument whatsoever that christians will be ruling over non-christians
All christians going to heaven is nonsensical as I have unquestionably established.
<<All Christians going to heaven is nonsensical as I have unquestionably established.>>
You can make up anything you want and attach scriptures that do not support your conclusions.
No scripture you have referenced supports the idea that there are Christians out there who are not anointed, not justified and bereft of the heavenly hope...and that they are all associated with an organization headquartered in Warwick NY. This group only exists in your imagination.
The Bible is clear. All true believers
have eternal life I John 5:11-13...(compare WT Aug.15, 1945 p.253)
are completely forgiven I John 1:6
are sons of God John 1:12... (compare WT Aug.15, 1945 p.253)
are to partake of the emblems of Christ's death I Cor.11:25 John 6:53
are indwelt by the Holy Spirit Ro.8:9 are born again. Jn.3:3 I Cor.12:13
are justified by grace through faith in Christ Jesus? Ro.3:21-26
are declared righteous having Christ's righteousness imputed to them?
Ro.4: 22 - 25 I Cor. 6:11 I Cor 5:21 Acts 3:38-39 Ro.10:1-3
are members of the body of Christ? I Cor.12:27
share in the New Covenant mediated by Christ Heb.12:24
are entitled to share in the communion loaf and cup I Cor.10:16-17
share one hope and that was a heavenly one. II Tim.4:18
All christians going to heaven is nonsensical as I have unquestionably established.
Fisherman,
Aren't you even a little bit worried about preaching a gospel that was unknown to the apostles?
CHRISTIAN CITIZENSHIP IS IN HEAVEN. The earth will be populated by the surviving nations after the GT.
Vanderhoven7 and other evangelical Christians, outside of what the NT and certain other scripture books (and books based upon them) say, what evidence is there (if any) that the holy spirit (an alleged holy spirit) dwells in Christians? Can it be scientifically demonstrated that such a spirit dwells in Christians? Can it also be scientifically demonstrated that such a spirit dwells in Christians to the exclusion of all non-Christians? How can it be demonstrated (if it can be demonstrated) it/he is someone (or is something) other an a purely imaginary idea? In other words, what evidence is there (outside of religious literature) that the holy spirit exists? You are making the claim that it/he exists here on planet Earth, since you claim it is dwelling within Christians, therefore if your claim is correct there should be demonstrable evidence to back it up.
According to Sea Breeze all living humans have a Tri-Partite nature in which the spirit of God exists in all living humans. But what evidence (outside of religious literature) is there is the the spirit of God (the alleged spirit of God) exists in humans, though not in non-human animals (other them being breathers)? Has it been scientifically demonstrated to exist in humans?
I was raised from infancy by baptized JW parents and I was raised to believe in the JW religion and to practice it. Despite that, prior to me becoming baptized as a JW Christian I never believed that the spirit of God, or the holy spirit of God, or an other spirit being (or spirit entity) existed in me or dwelt in me. Likewise while I was a baptized JW I did not I believe any kind of spirit entity was ever inside me. Furthermore, when I was an independent Christian I did not I believe any kind of spirit entity was ever inside me, though I knew of passages in the book called "According to John" which say that holy spirit dwells in Christians. At no time in my life did I have any physical sensation, or emotional experience, or any other detected experience within me, or belief within me of any kind of spirit entity being inside of me at any moment. How could such be the case if all humans have Tri-Partite nature which includes the spirit of God? Furthermore, how could it be the case if the holy spirit dwells within all Christians?
Furthermore, if the holy spirit and/or Christ Jesus dwells in Christians and instructs them, then why is it that Christianity is so divided doctrinally into numerous sub-religions (into numerous churches, and into numerous denominations, and into sects, as well as into what some refer to as cults)? Why do the theologians (with advanced degrees in theology and in NT studies) of the numerous sub-religions of Christianity disagree with each other so much in regards to doctrines and in regards to interpretations/explanations of the Bible? Why haven't the various religions of Christianity united themselves into one religion of Christianity, especially since according the book called "According to John" says that Jesus said that the apostles (and presumably also the later disciples) of Jesus all would be united as one? Furthermore, why hasn't Christianity prevented itself from becoming divided in the first place? How it can be true that all of the sincere devout priests, ministers, pastors, "fathers", and elders of the various religions/sub-religions of Christianity have the indwelling of the holy spirit (also known as the spirit of truth) and/or the indwelling of the Christ, when they remain doctrinally divided instead of being doctrinally united?
Can it be demonstrated that Christians live more upright lives than Buddhists? If not, how can it be true that the Christ and the holy spirit dwell within Christians? Can it be scientifically demonstrated that the so-called holy spirit even exists (that it/he exists) anywhere, whether in some humans on planet Earth, or in an alleged supernatural heavens, or in the physical 'heavens' (outer space) of the universe, or any place else?
Vanderhoven7 and other Christians, what would it (if anything) take for you to stop being convinced of Christianity and of the NT's claims pertaining to the doctrines of Christianity? [I ask this partly because I am discouraged that my efforts to persuade Christians away from belief in Christianity and the Bible appear to be having almost no degree of success.]
From my perspective so much evidence and so much sound reasoning have made available to you on this site that Christianity is false, that much of the NT is false, and that much of the OT is false, yet you persist in believing in Christianity. Why? I am baffled that is it so hard for so many Christians of high intellect to cease persisting in believing in Christianity (even theistic Christianity, which is by far the most common form) despite them reading a considerable amount of the evidence and argumentation which has been presented against Christianity.
In my case, when I was a Christian prior to a few years before ceasing to be a God-believer I had read very little of such evidence and argumentation (and I had heard very little of such). Most the evidence I had read during that time was simply some of the scientific evidence that the universe and Earth are billions of years old, that scientists have discovered natural processes of the formation and ongoing cosmological change of the universe (including of the Earth), that according to the vast majority of scientists biological evolution (including human evolution) on planet Earth is a fact, and that the human mind is the product of the functioning human brain.
During that time (the time prior to a few years before I ceased to be a God-believer) I had read none of the evidence against Christianity and the Bible from atheists in literature promoting atheism. That is because I had not dared to read any pro-atheism literature. I had only encountered (namely in a college English literature course's book) a very brief amount of the evidence and argumentation in quotes of deistic literature (literature written in the late 1700s through the early 1800s by Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine). But after a few years of me reading and studying much of such I ceased believing in Christianity, in the doctrinal claims of the NT and the OT, in YHWH God and Christ and Satan, and in the supernatural.
I yearn for the vast majority of human society, including the vast majority of humans of western civilization, including the vastly majority of humans of the USA, to embrace scientific naturalism (without embracing totalitarianism).
DJW - ........you persist in believing in Christianity. Why?
I wonder this too. I also wonder why some believe in other Religions too.
I'd be interested in an answer to this.
I mean, believe what you want to believe as long as no harm comes to anyone. However, it seems that most religions will engage in bloodshed.
I yearn for the vast majority of human society, including the vast majority of humans of western civilization, including the vastly majority of humans of the USA, to embrace scientific naturalism.
DJW, are you aware that neither you nor any other atheist can argue against the reality of non-material things without using non-material things?
It's like someone arguing that there's no such thing as oxygen, while breathing the whole time. It's almost like arguing that there's no such thing as arguing! When a materialist argues that only the material realm is real, that only material things exist, he cannot do that without using ideas, which Einstein pointed out are not physical.
Like numbers, ideas themselves are not physical, yet are very real. They're not made of matter and they're not made of energy. Regardless of how much we use them or how often, they never run out and they never wear out. Numbers are without limit and do not have temperature, density, color, mass, volume, shape, a melting point, hardness, odor, length, etc. They lack the properties of matter and energy, and even of space and time.
Here are a few other things that are outside of a materialist naturalism worldview:
- Math is not physical.
- Information is not physical.
- Grammar is not physical.
- Logic is not physical.
- Reason is not physical.
- Ideas are not physical.
- Language is not physical.
- Science is not physical.
- Morality is not physical.
- Truth is not physical.
- Probability is not physical.
- Souls are not physical.
- Spirits are not physical.
- Concepts are not physical.
- Codes are not physical.
- Loyalty is not physical.
- Love is not physical.
Light and matter itself travel as a mathematical probability wave that collapses into particles upon observation. Where did the information come from ? Why does observation trigger its transformation?
A materialist naturalism world-view describes very little of our experience. Why would anyone buy into this as some sort of oasis of truth? There must be a larger reality that includes materialism and naturalism as part thereof, but at the same time accounts for the things it doesn't explain.
I'm curious, Why do you yearn for others to join you in naturalism? What would this do for you if they did?
Sea Breeze, I didn't say I am a materialist, I said I am a naturalist. You seem to equate the terms 'materialist' and 'naturalist'. I have brought this to your attention in at least one other post. There is a difference in philosophical naturalism and philosophical materialism. I also think there is a subtle difference between "scientific naturalism" and "philosophical naturalism". I never l claimed to be a materialist, but rather a naturalist. That is because even before I ceased believing in supernaturalism I was aware of the philosophical arguments which say that materialism is incompatible with belief in numbers, logic, love, etc.
In my post I don't argue against the reality of non-material things in general, but rather I argue against the realty of specific non-material things - namely against the supernatural. That is a distinction which you seem to refuse to acknowledge. I am thus not inconsistent in this matter. Numbers, logic, and love, for examples, are a part of the universe and hence a part of nature (in the broad sense of the word 'nature').
The reason why I stopped believing in the supernatural (at least in regards to entities which are defined as interacting with humans) is because the evidence of them which should exist if they are real doesn't exist. To me you are presenting a 'straw man' argument against scientific naturalism and against philosophical naturalism.
My entire life experience has been totally devoid of the supernatural. I have investigated claims of the existence of the supernatural, including claims that supernatural phenomena manifests among humans but I have not found any conclusive evidence of such. In contrast, I have very frequently experienced mathematics, information, grammar, logic, reason, ideas, language, science, morality, truth, concepts, codes, loyalty, and emotions (including happiness, joy, misery, sadness, loneliness, anger, hate, fear, shyness, pleasure, desire, and forms of love).
The ideas of YHWH God, Baal, Zeus, a gremlin, and a fairy exist, but well beyond a reasonable doubt neither of them exist as a living being.
Yes I believe that mathematics, logic, and other so-called 'things' exist, though not directly consisting of matter-energy. PBS TV had a science episode in which scientists shared their idea of whether math exists or not. Some scientists believe it does and granted some others don't. I consider some of the 'things' in your list to be attributes of energy-matter when in various configurations. None of those things would exist if energy-matter never existed. Even before the universe (or multi-verse), as commonly defined, existed matter-energy in some form existed (such as quantum fluctuations). Love did not exist until biological life of certain kinds came to exist, since love is an attribute of the minds of some biological beings. In the future I might also become an attribute of some human-made artificially intelligent computerized robots.
