born again Christians

by ymrah 212 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Little Toe;

    You may be right, in your summation of the book, however Lewis was atheistic when he became a Christian (became connected). Let's not let that point slide.

    I covered that; he was enculturated in a Christian Society, and I specifically mentioned people of that group being especuially susceptable to the arguments therein.

    My point, in bringing this to your attention, is that it highlights that there are highly respected mainstream Christians who have this tolerance. It's not just a JWD-Christian thing. It should hopefully give pause for thought, to those who have pigeon-holed all "born again"s as fundies.

    Bugs the hell out of me when some Christians do the 'baby with the bath water' thing, or the 'atheists have no moral values' thing. I can understand if you are offended if you feel lumped in or deindivdualised.

    Let me elucidate.

    What I find objectionable is when people with no externalised proof tell me their god will kill or torture me. It really jades me. I'm funny like that.

    I'm not saying that you said that, but I think you have to agree that IF someone believes in such a judgement of the good or bad by god, then they believe people such as myself will be killed or tortured by god. I don't particulary care which god they believe in either, I'd be in a Muslim's face to the same extent.

    If one excludes behaviour (virtually) anyone would describe as evil such as murder, and takes it as read that I do the best I can and am a fairly nice chap most days, then (as god or the specifics of belief cannot be externally proved) it is the same as someone saying that I should be killed or tortured due to a difference of opinion. There are no facts or proof involved, it's assertions based on texts which cannot be proven to be god's word, and which in any case are open to interpretation. I don't care if they have an internal validation, it quite clearly doesn't make a difference to externally determinable facts.

    Nazi party members by their membership subscribed to the opinion that the Jews should be killed, not because of any facts they could demonstrate or crimes individual Jews may have committed, but because that was the (sick evil twisted) opinion of their organisation. There were no facts or proof of guilt involved. Some may have felt, internally, that they were right, but it quite clearly doesn't make a difference to externally determinable facts. Most obviously did not take part, but if they knew of the policy, they gave their approval to it (albeit under duress in some instances) by remaining Nazi Party members.

    How can a religious person be any different if they are members of a religion that subscribes to the opinion (as god or the specifics of belief cannot be externally proved) that people should be killed or tortured?

    Killed or tortured not because of any facts they could demonstrate or crimes individual people may have committed, but because that is the opinion of their 'organisation' (belief structure)? The fact that they are under duress of the same punishment if they don't keep up their 'membership' (belief) is just about the only justification that can be given, and I don't think anyone will argue it's much of a justification.

    Basically such a belief structure is immoral and repugnant. Religious people would be up in arms if atheists professed that religious people should be shot or set on fire because they are religious people, no matter how law abiding and good they might be.

    Yet this is more or less what many FUNDAMANTAL religious people believe, except the killing and burning is done by proxy by their invisable friend... which somehow makes it okay!! NOT.

    Is that clear enough? If you don't believe your invisable friend is going to roast or otherwise harm me on account of opinion, I don't give a monkies if you are born again or born once, Hare Krishna or hairy backed.

    If you do believe that your invisable friend will do such things on the grounds of opinion, then that is what I call a fundamentalist.

    Now, as we don't get many people from non-Christian cultures here, it is normally Christians who get the stick for this rather unpleasent belief structure only some fellow Christians hold. Born Again is equated to Fundamental (my definition) when not all Born Agains are Fundies.

    In the interests of fair play I am very happy to play 'slap the fundy' with Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Seikhs, Buhddists who believe I should be killed or tortured on the grounds of their big fat dumb opinions, just like I do with Christians who hold such repugnant beliefs.

  • MegaDude
    MegaDude

    Six, the church is not inspired? Not even your church? The Church of the Most Holy Tortilla?

    (*you know what tortilla I'm talking 'bout!)

  • Valis
    Valis

    Mega...porn...um I mean corn tortilla maybe..*LOL*

    I have always found it rather egoistic for any church to say that...I think humility does get lost in the fervent worship of any particular dog...

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer of the "My dogma ate your catechism" class

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat
    But when born againers express feeling of worthlessness (and how Jesus subsequently makes them feel saved, though not worthy), well, I ache for them, but I also realise that those feeling are not expressions of humility, aren't logical, and aren't healthy. I only hope that they can one day be free of those feelings. I can't help but think that if there is a god, he/she/it wouldn't want good people going around feeling almost inconsolably bad about themselves. Especially so, when you realise where those feelings come from. *cough* Andi * cough*pappa* cough* *cough* mouthy* cough* abuse*cough*.

    Six~ excuse me class

    You're excused!

    But I would like to clarify something here. I do not feel worthless. I do not feel inconsolably bad about myself. I strive for an attitude of humility, many times of which I fail, but I continue striving KNOWing I will fail. I have much worth as a human being. That to those around me as well as to the God above. My salvation is not based on me FEELING an unhealthy worthlessness. My salvation is based on a personal acceptance of the grace freely given EVERYONE. In fact, now that I am a Christian I don't struggle with worthless feelings as terribly as I did as a JW or an "unbeliever of God". (The time between my DF and joining my current church.) Since the time that I accepted this salvation I have grown by leaps and bounds in my faith in God. My feelings of worthiness has increased because I am loved for WHO I AM AT THIS VERY MOMENT - imperfections included. That was never the case as a JW or the period immediately afterwards.

    If you find a Born Again person struggling with self-worth is should NOT have anything to do with the fact they are Christian/Born Again. (In theory!) It is most likely for a different reason. If the reason IS because they are Christian/Born Again, they are missing the point of Christianity - UNCONDITIONAL LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE. It is upon that point that my worthlessness started slowly disappearing. It was upon that point that I realized I AM worthy in God's eyes...that He loves me EXACTLY where I'm at. HE loves EVERYONE exactly where they're at...but many self-righteous Christians would like to disregard that in order to make themselves feel superior or to control them.

    Now...although God loves us ALL where we are...not all have accepted Him or His gift of Salvation. What happens to those that DON'T accept His gift is what this whole thread has discussed. I know what most BA believe what happens to those people, but my answer is to THAT is "I don't know". I can speculate, but refuse to do that since it'd probably be wrong.

    *sigh*

    Have I muddied the waters even more?!?!

    Andi

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    If you find a Born Again person struggling with self-worth is should NOT have anything to do with the fact they are Christian/Born Again. (In theory!)

    But indeed it often does albeit in a backhanded sort of way. Here is how it works... a man struggles with being a "good" christian man, he is set up for failure, by his own ego, his own drive, his own unrealistic idea of what he can and cannot control.... he fails, of course, and the bible writings are of no help of course, because they are so, to be blunt, hardass, even savage, to be honest. "I mean, if god killed a man for trying to keep the ark of the covenant from falling, well, how am I ever going to get it right? But I better try, and maybe grace will cover me... but sheesh, what about that ark of the covenant...." *always in the back of your mind, if you believe the bible inspired* ark ark ark, the hairlip nightmare

    He is small enough to transfer his failures to his family..... You see where I'm going with this, and it is a story that is played out a million times a day.

    I would just say that the cure should NOT have anything to do with religion or even a born again experience as well. You can surely see the benefits of this attitude, as it is highly unlikely that a person w/o western "christian" stories implanted in their mind is going to have a BA experience. But my god ;-) I hope they can have mental health anyway.

    One point I hope you'll think about long and hard; when I said:

    But when born againers express feeling of worthlessness (and how Jesus subsequently makes them feel saved, though not worthy)
    I didn't just pull that out of thin air.
  • Francois
    Francois

    I take the attitude that perfection is our goal; it is not ours by right of attainment in the here and now of this first life in the flesh.

    We have been give all the tools we need ("...the kingdom of heaven is within you...")

    And we have been given our marching orders (love god with a whole soul, and your neighbor as your self)

    Simple, simple, simple.

    Now with that very light and easy yoke, we are equipped to do all that is necessary to begin our journey, our continuing evolution, from an animal-origin creature of this planet to survival in the next stage of our continuing evolution. And one day in the far distant future, we will arrive at that high estate to which we have been pointed, "be you perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." We can't be spiritually perfect short of the center of all things, but we can be creature perfect as He is Diety perfect. We've got the tools, we've got the marching instructions. Now it's up to us. And when you've lived your life such that you can, when you desire, reach inward and touch the Light, then you're truly born again. (And there's no doubt possible when you've really touched the Light)

    So, have at it. You are the only thing holding you back.

    francois

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat

    Six,

    This is so simple. Born Again Christians (that I know of anyways) KNOW that our salvation is NOT based on WORKS. I repeat: It is based ONLY on accepting the grace itself. We all struggle. We all fail - everyday. But I have peace knowing that everyday is a new day. Tomorrow I can improve on what I've done wrong today. God KNOWS we're imperfect. He doesn't expect us to be perfect. He knows we'll never achieve it. Instead of having a feeling of worthlessness, the feeling of "Oh-my-goodness-I'm-never-going-to-get-this-right" like the JWs feel...I have a feeling of FREEDOM. Why? Because no matter what I do I still have salvation. What about those people that accept that gift and then turn around to murder? I don't know. (You see I don't know alot! ) But what I do know is that I do everything I can to not ABUSE the gift given to me. Yes, I have salvation, but it doesn't mean I am free to commit sin willy-nilly. I LOVE GOD. I LOVE our relationship. It is much like my relationship with other people I love...I try to please them. I WANT to make them happy! I LOVE them and LIKE to make them happy! Do I fail? Of course. But when there is love in a relationship, it is forgiven and you move on. That is how it is with God. I disappoint him, I try harder, and we move on.

    Can you believe that sometimes HE even disappoints ME? It happens. But I still love Him. And we move on.

    Andi

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    ark ark ark!! lol

    love ya

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat
    ark ark ark!! lol

    *clapping hands with arms straight* Are you a seal??? (((((())))))

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Six:

    Here is how it works... a man struggles with being a "good" christian man, he is set up for failure, by his own ego, his own drive, his own unrealistic idea of what he can and cannot control.... he fails, of course, and the bible writings are of no help of course, because they are so, to be blunt, hardass, even savage, to be honest.

    That sounds like religion, to me.
    I can't promote that, with the best will in the world.
    But to my mind that isn't what a "born again" is trying to acheive.

    IMHO spirituality begins by submitting the "ego". In the Christian path, it means submitting it to Christ. Other belief structures have their own method.
    Moving on from that, once one has acceptance in Christ, one has "Christian Liberty". It doesn't mean doing literally anything, for everyone strives to be a good citizen, but it does free one from condemnation.

    We all look for acceptance outside ourselves, at some point. If we have acceptance from a source that we care about, little else matters. We can move on from that foundation.

    Just a few sporadic thoughts (sorry about the religious jargon)...

    Edited because I'm an imbecile, who somehow managed to hit "Post", before typing anything...

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