born again Christians

by ymrah 212 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Dansk

  Hello LT

  Saved from the proposition of dying and our bodies merely becoming manure, and should we have an eternal spirit, a spirit that continues unconnected to

  "God"

  .

  Now you wrote that in reply to Spanner. So, this loving merciful God would have us be manure if we don't accept Christ! What a loving religion, and all par for the course!!

  You may find that most of the "born agains" that you are preaching to, on this site, are more than well aware of what you're alluding to. For the most part they are probably more at peace with their beliefs, and those of others, than their detrators.

  Oh, so now I’M preaching! If BAs are at peace with their beliefs, fine – for the umpteenth time – but I just hope that those who believe in Hellfire don’t preach it to others who may be weak and susceptible.

  You are also making assumptions, again, as to what "born again" believers believe regarding the bible. Did you look up Shelby's opinion (AGuest), as I mentioned, earlier in the thread?

  Toe, it is very difficult NOT to make assumptions on the basis of the website I mentioned earlier and some of the posted comments. From what I've seen so far BAs can differ in what they believe or they veil what they believe or they skirt around the questions. I haven't read Shelby's opinion because I would like YOUR opinion on this thread - that is if you don't mind! So, what is YOUR view about the Bible? Do YOU believe that if we don't accept Jesus as Saviour we will go to Hell (as in hell with a fire) or end up as manure? Please, do this for me here. You may have mentioned it somewhere in this thread, or even elsewhere, but if you will please just answer me these two questions here.

  You also seem very judgemental of those you are calling "planks". At the end of the day, supposing they are right? There are hellfire scenarios in other religions besides Christianity.
  As John Milton wrote:
  "The mind is its own place, and of itself
  Can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven".

  No, I'm not judging anyone. Those days are well and truly behind me! If these people are right, they are right and there'd be nothing I could do about it because I'd be in Hell. However, no-one can say they KNOW because they haven't been there. One could equally say "What if the JWs are right?" Fortunately, I have discovered FOR MYSELF that they aren't!

  Milton's comments, sure I can handle that! But the mind is complex and works on mental stimulation, for good or for bad. Some of the greatest human iindividuals in history have not been Christian; they never accepted Jesus as their Saviour. Some never even got to know about the BIble. I wonder how their minds perceived things. Is a Tibetan Buddhist Hell the same as a Christian Hell (assuming a Christian believes in such a place)?

  I await your answers to my questions.

  Thanks,

  Dansk
• 

  Dansk

  You did not address the points I made in my post. I also said:

  I'd be interested to know if you really believe that a pagan can make a connection to God.

  If you'd rather not respond to that question, just say so, rather than ignoring me.

  See what I mean, LT. There is an undoubted feeling from a few of us on this thread that we can never get a straight answer from a BA. I feel Sirona deserves an answer.

  Also, I'd like to commend MegaDude's post. Yes, the doctrine of Hellfire can lead many straight into the arms of JWs because it is a heinous teaching!

  Dansk
• 

  Billygoat

  RE: Bible being a valid source

  Dansk,

  May I speak my heart? I truly don't mean to say this to fan flames and I truly do not mean to sound snotty...although I'm afraid this is how it sounds...but I feel almost as if you are expecting us to give you a YES or NO answer. A BLACK or WHITE answer. Almost like "Hurry up and grow up so you can see what I mean." I guess what I don't understand is why nobody is happy with the answer "I DON'T KNOW." I don't know if I believe in a hellfire per say. Does that negate the fact that I claim to be Christian or Born Again? I certainly hope not. I just look at it as something I DON'T KNOW. But I have faith that someday it will be answered...that I will have a fuller understanding.

  Not all Christians have ALL the answers to doctrinal questions. But we have experienced a valid and very personal journey. I'm sorry I'm not far enough into my journey to answer you, as I'd truly love to give you something more concrete. (I love concrete answers myself.) But please don't rush me to understand your viewpoint of the bible not being a valid source. Like I said in a previous post - THE BIBLE IS A BOOK OF QUESTIONS...NOT NECESSARILY ANSWERS.

  My faith is exactly as it is...FAITH. I do not have concrete answers, but I have a peace that it's OKAY to not have them right now. I am perfectly at peace that I can work on the lessons I'm learning now...how to live a good life...how to love my neighbor (whether Christian or not)...being a wonderful wife and someday a great mother. When the opportunity comes to learn more I will be able to explain more. I KNOW in my heart of hearts that someday it will ALL be made clear. But not having that clarity today doesn't leave me in a holding pattern or a frantic "I've-got-to-know-before-I-move-on" mentality. THAT is what FAITH is to me. TRUSTING that I'm RIGHT WHERE I NEED TO BE.

  * feeling disappointed, misunderstood and rushed*

  Andi
• 

  Dansk

  Andi,

  I don't have a problem with YOUR answer! I'm waiting for LT's.

  Dansk
• 

  Joyzabel

  hey ((((Billygoat)))

  just adding my 2 cents. The reason people are uncomfortable with "I don't know" is because they like certainty.

  Have you read Daniel Taylor's Myth of Certainty ?

  j2bf
• 

  Billygoat

  There is an undoubted feeling from a few of us on this thread that we can never get a straight answer from a BA. I feel Sirona deserves an answer.

  This is another things that bothers me. You may feel that YOU or Sirona deserves an answer. From us that are BA? Why? If we don't have the answer why get upset at US when we're okay with where we're at? As EXJWs we've learned to not feel obligated to anyone. Why are we even OBLIGATED to answer anyone? Honestly we don't have to.

  LT, myself, Megadude, Mouthy...we are all just sharing WHERE we are RIGHT NOW. (see my post above)

  My biggest frustration about some of these conversations is the demanding "attitude/writing/viewpoints" that seem to be projected. I may be feeling a little sensitive to the requests, but I just don't understand it. Yesterday I poured out everything I possibly could in order to express myself. Yet it wasn't enough. I'm sorry. I have nothing else to give.

  Andi
• 

  Billygoat

  (((((((((((((Dansk)))))))))))))))) But I do want to thank you for the opportunity of sharing myself. Funny as it sounds, it is debates like this that help solidify my faith. I hope we can continue sharing more in the future. Sorry for misunderstanding what you were asking above. My bad.

  ((((((((((((((Joy)))))))))))))))))) I understand the desire for certainty. But striving for that desire is like chasing after the wind. THAT IS WHY THERE IS FAITH, imo. No I haven't read it. Do you recommend I do?
• 

  Joyzabel

  Billygoat,

  I think you would enjoy it. Ask Megadude, he finally read it!

  j2bf
• 

  safe4kids

  Argh!!!

  Yesterday I poured out everything I possibly could in order to express myself. Yet it wasn't enough. I'm sorry. I have nothing else to give.

  ((((((((((((((((((Andi))))))))))))))))))

  Yes, it was 'enough'. I think you are probably aware that I'm not a christian, nor am I religious in any way. That doesn't preclude my ability to accept, respect and ADMIRE some of you who are and who try to share a bit of where you're currently at! I understand what you and LT are saying, and I agree that people seem to be at cross purposes here...please don't let it get you down or hurt you in any way.

  Luv ya,

  Dana
• 

  JT

  Since you on this board at the same time as i am and at work. I meet everyday Jw's in my building on the street everyday. I fade away it is just a matter of time they will find out about my state. How would you deal with former members that you meet on the street. I know once they find out about me it will be a shock since i know so many people in that city everywhere i go i meet one and they always asking the same question how is your congregation.

  amen

  excellent question- each persons situation is very different so there IS NO ONE RULE FITS ALL

  we were taught that foolishness in wt, cause one old 89yr sister pioneered, then anyone younger than her had no excuse not to, that type of one rule fits alls-

  my wife and i just walked away wrote no letter and don't plan on to- when we meet jw we always speak and when they ask how is the congo i tell them the last time we were there all was doing fine- we have not been in 5yrs- at that point their mouths drop and the are usually stunned cause here you are with this big old grin on your face, looking as fresh as a baby's behind and they are standing there looking like WARMED OVER DEATH and they have been told if you leave the org, stop coming

  your life goes to hell in a hand basket, and yet in my exp they are afraid to ask anymore- and for those who do, i often just tell them we no longer go-

  my wife and i spent alot of time trying to figure out how half -way sharp folks like us could stay inside a group that believes and practices the things that jw do-

  we took classes on "conditioning" and afterward it made all the sense in the world -

  We realized --- THAT THERE IS NO NEED WHATSOEVER TO ARGUE OR TRY TO EXPLAIN TO A JW WHY WE LEFT-

  IF YOU ever wanted to waste your time - then meet a jw on the street and you got 3 min to explain why you turned your back on god-

  it has taken us years to get indoctrinated in the jw and look at us now years later many of us including myself are still trying to "Get over it" as it were and move on with our lives, - so what could possiblably be said in 3 min so that a 25yr jw will walk away saying :

  "I fully understand why joe and sue left, it makes all the sense in the world, and it is good to see that they are doing well" YEA RIGHT-

  I LOOOK At JW AND know that the JOKE is on them i have old bethel buddies who are shooting for the traveling work, they have flunky jobs, no retirement they wash windows LITERALLY for a living, do cleaning at night, etc and in a few years when they hit 65 they will whether they realize it or not BE SHIT OUT OF LUCK-

  my wife and i are back in college, we have started our own biz, we built a lovely home and are trying to play catchup with our INVESTMENTS

  SO THE JOKE WILL BE ON THEM

  when i left bethel i went to work for a fortune 500 company, i was hired by this white guy who was impressed by the fact that i worked for FREE AT BETHEL

  he told me james if you will work that hard for free i know you will work hard for money

  my company was looking to open the doors for minorities and he told me point blank:

  "James you got the look and you know how to talk- you got a lovely intelligent wife- you will fit in well"

  well i saw how many hours manager worked and i turned down opportunity after opportunity- he wanted be to be his side kick, was I to have a black token - perhaps , but the point is i was given chance after chance, they pay for your college edu if it was job related

  but i like working 40hours no overtime- my evenings and weekends were free

  - i could make all my meetings, serve on various circuit level assignment, yes be part of the LOCAL HEAVIES as it were

  he even forged my name on a managment job offer- i got a call from my corporate home office telling

  me that my interview for the managment position i applied for was for wed at 3pm- i was like what the F#$K is going on- smile

  he told me "I wanted you to have the exp of seeing how the interview process is done for executives"

  i turned it down- he was promoted to regional director in atlanta, ga-

  i went down there for some training-----he saw my name on the class roster and came to the class - told me to stop by his office during lunch

  he told me

  james we got a position coming up it ain't even posted yet - i want for you to apply for it- talk to your wife when you get back to DC- he told me ----

  once in managment the company will buy your old house thru the reestate division and pay for you move down here- houses are cheaper than in dc and the air is cleaner--

  as he was talking to me i was smiling and telling him i would give it serious thought --YEA RIGHT

  I KNEW i was not about to leave dc go to GA and end up in some backward congo /circuit where i would have to start all over again in terms of the "Privileges" i had-so i turned it down

  well to make a long story short-- this guy was going to let me ride his coattail as he was promoted -

  like it is done so many times in the real world of biz

  today he is the Vice President of CANON USA- now this is why i have no need to explain Shit to some Damn Cheese and Cracker Man as to my whereabout and my dealings

  like I always say they can kiss the "Blackness on my A$$"

  C YA