born again Christians

by ymrah 212 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

ozziepost

Wow! I go to bed for a few hours, and look what I missed!! Old Ozzie noticed one thing that just might be helpful:
For example, the four gospels are recognised as NOT being written by those they are credited with. Hebrews was NOT written by Paul. Revelation is a fraud.
Dansk,
I suspect when you're further along the road to freedom, you will be able to see things even less from a Borg view. Methinks that comment is a reaction to WTS teachings which you've come to see are faulty. For example, the general view of Bible commentators is that Hebrews was not written by Paul, (it's just not known who the author was), Revelation is an apocalyptic book (as is Daniel) and so only certain cults like the Dubs take words in it as being literal and prophetic.
Cheers, Ozzie
bluesapphire

Andi,
No offense intended and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. But you assume I was never involved in a "born again" community. I was. Before I ever became JW I was in Assemblies of God. Then the first pitstop I made after leaving JWs was Calvary Chapel.
Of course we can't paint all people with the same wide brush. But you know (if you're willing to admit it if only to yourself) that is what "Born Againers" believe. It's just like a JW saying, "We can't read hearts...only Jehovah will judge bla bla bla" when all the while they know the official teaching is that all others will die die die.
I know some people like you may not believe in it but isn't it weird how you have to actually shut yourself off from the "Official" position? Don't you think that's a little strange? Doesn't it remind you of some other religion from your past?
Billygoat

Whew. Sorry I couldn't answer earlier. I realized I had taken a WAAAY too long "lunch" and needed to get some work done. Please be patient as I may need to answer some of these questions in increments. (Doggies at home may need me to take a break!) I can tell this is going to be long...
JT:
now the question is WHO DETERMINES "TRUE"
Not I. I can look at someone and see them cheat, swindle, fornicate, do whatever is against the Bible, but do I know if they are a TRUE Christian? It boils down to "no". Only God makes that judgement. I do believe one day I'll go to heaven. And I also believe I'll be surprised by some of the people that are there. I'm sure I'll also be surprised by some of the people that AREN'T there. In the meantime, I treat that person with kindness, love and respect as that is commanded by Christ. (Whether they are a believer or not!) I see your point though. I believe that "true Christians" WANT to live by the standards set out in the scriptures...which means they do on a more frequent basis than they don't.

why is your true more truer than the next born again person--- who believes that if i don't accept his belief system i am lost-
I don't know that it is. I don't believe you are lost or not. It's not my place to say. I may look at someone and think "They can't be a true Christian...he sleeps with anyone that tickles his fancy" but MY OPINION matters not. It boils down to God's opinion of that person. He has the advantage of reading that person's heart. I don't.
Are you willing to admit on the WWW that others beside BA have just as good of relationship with the divine as you,-
Yes. Even on the WWW. But I think your definition of a BA may be boxed in a little. My definition of a BA is not the bible-thumping Southern Baptist that believes cigarettes, alcohol, and dancing will make you burn in hell forever. My definition of a BA is a person who has basically had a spiritual awakening with God that creates a "newness" in that person's heart, more often than not moving him to make some major changes in their life.
I am affiliated with a fairly liberal Southern Baptist church here in Dallas. I have friends that are Catholic that have been "born again". This is not a Catholic term per say, but their relationship with God and "newness" in mind/heart/spirit have created some major changes. There are people in my church that would say my friends are NOT Born Again simply because they are Catholic. I do not believe that. I don't think the Bible supports their beliefs.
you see the whole concept of Belief systems require that you say others beliefs fall short

Says who? You know everything I believe because I claim to be BA? Again, don't box me into what you THINK being BA is. I do not believe that other beliefs fall short. I do not know. I know my beliefs work for me. I believe my Lord Christ and God are happy with me. And to ME that's all that matters. It is YOU that should worry about YOU. It is Spanner that should worry about Spanner, or Little Toe worry about himself. I believe one of these days I will have to answer for ME and ME alone. Not you, my husband, my children, etc. I am not here to say anyone's beliefs fall short. But I do believe one day GOD WILL. Maybe he will say your beliefs fall short. Maybe it will be me standing before His throne that day. Who knows until it happens right? In the meantime I live my life the way I see fit and hope others see my life as one they'd like to have.
we had a discussion about BA awhile back and it was funny watching 2 sets of born againd go at each other OVER A REAL FIERY HELL
one BA said no real fire, the other said it was, and they both called themselves THE REAL ba
I know sometimes it's hard to believe a specific belief system without getting passionate about it. If you believe it that strongly then of course your passionate. Sometimes those passions are uncontrolled and the whole POINT is lost over arguing about doctrine. I will never argue about doctrine. I have beliefs about doctrine and I will share them, but I believe you are entitled to your thoughts as I am. I refuse to argue because IT'S NOT THE POINT. Too many Christians LOSE FOCUS by arguing hellfire, heaven, eating blood and other Pharasaical ideas. The only doctrine I believe is ABSOLUTE is LOVE. Christ taught that is the only law to live under. If we as Christians take that law to heart, everything else fades by the wayside. I heard a quote once "It's hard to give a hug when your arms are crossed." I love that quote because it's so true. If I LOVE you I will respectfully listen to your beliefs, perhaps share some of mine, we'll laugh over a beer and talk about our last vacation. Fortunately that seems to be the base idea in many Eastern religions as well. See I'm not entirely closed-minded to other beliefs.
It's not my business to judge whether or not another has salvation -

you made the above statment- let me ask you Do your belief system (Born Again) teach that One can get salvation without being Born Again , such as a jew or muslium, hindu-
and what is the penlty according to your belief system for not being BA?

Once again, remember that you are boxing in what Born Again means. Some people that are BA say that the only way to heaven is through being Baptist or Catholic, JW, etc. No I don't subscribe to every belief of a Hindu, Muslim, Jew, etc. But is there a possibility that God could use that religion as a tool to speak to those people? Even a faint possibility? I believe so yes. I believe there are different tools that God uses to draw people to His heart.
I remember as a child asking my parents about the Native Americans. Would they have salvation? Of course my parents being JWs said "No. They didn't love Jehovah." That always bothered me. It bothers me today that they believe the children of India or Indonesia or Africa that have never heard of Jehovah don't have a chance for salvation. How terrible for God to NOT give them the opportunity to decide before they died! I wonder sometimes if there is another phase of Life after Life on earth. I wonder if He makes Himself known through other avenues (ie. Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc). Again it boils down to right now - I DON'T KNOW. But I have faith that God at SOME POINT makes Himself known to everyone on earth. Maybe not in the past, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but at some point...maybe in another life? I just don't know.
To JT and anyone else that isn't a Christian or is a Christian and does NOT believe what I believe...it's okay. Many know by now, that although I attend a Southern Baptist Church, I am not a Southern Baptist. I am a Christian. I am a follower of Christ and not man. I just happened to find a church family where most of my associates believe as I do.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share. And I hope you had the patience to read all this. LOL!
Andi
Billygoat

We all tend to make judgements, I love that I can make the loving judgement (of deciding that other peoples, other types, are just as ok as those I grew up around) w/o any fear that I'm going against the big pappa.
I like your thinking Sixy. I think more people should make the decisions you do. BUT let's say I do make a judgement about you. Let's say I point a finger at you and say "You'll burn in hell for shaving your head, wearing a goatee, and not attending church!!!" Does my judgement matter??? Not in the least. That's why I try to make the same judgements you do - the loving judgement. Christ taught his followers to love...not judge. So that's what I try to do. Love. I don't fear going against the Big Pappa either. How can I go against Him when I don't know what His judgement is???
See Sixy...your thinking is a lot like mine. You're closer to Christianity than you thought. (That's just a joke!)
Andi
bluesapphire

Wanting to duck out of this discussion .....
I think people should read what the Didache says regarding baptism/being born again. Now that's a manuscript that the churched really goofed on! They should take Revelation out of the canon and instead put in the Didache. There wouldn't be as many sects if they had done this.
I think before anyone joins any religion they should study the history of Christianity. It's too easy to jump from the frying pan into the fire.
Billygoat

Bluesapphire,
No offense intended and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. But you assume I was never involved in a "born again" community. I was. Before I ever became JW I was in Assemblies of God. Then the first pitstop I made after leaving JWs was Calvary Chapel.
Of course we can't paint all people with the same wide brush. But you know (if you're willing to admit it if only to yourself) that is what "Born Againers" believe. It's just like a JW saying, "We can't read hearts...only Jehovah will judge bla bla bla" when all the while they know the official teaching is that all others will die die die.

Don't worry you didn't hurt my feelings. You're a doll and I've always liked you. I think this type of discussion is good and healthy. Good and healthy does NOT mean we have to agree. But along with Good and Healthy comes rules of fair debating. Sweeping generalizations are not fair.
But to respond to your comment:
I've never been involved with Assemblies of God or a Calvary Chapel. But just because your experience with some Born Againers was very restrictive or judgemental (I know I'm paraphrasing here) does not mean that ALL people who claim to be BA are restrictive and judgemental. Do you remember any JWs that truly lived by the Bible and were loving to EVERYONE no matter the person's congregational status? I do. There weren't many, but they were there. Do you know for a fact that ALL Catholics believe in purgatory? It is the "official" teaching of the church yanno. But I know of Catholics that don't believe in EVERYTHING about the Catholic church. Isn't there a possibility that there are Born Againers (like me or Little Toe or others that have commented) that don't subscribe to the generic term "Born Again"? Like LT said earlier, it is an experience NOT a true title.
I know some people like you may not believe in it but isn't it weird how you have to actually shut yourself off from the "Official" position? Don't you think that's a little strange? Doesn't it remind you of some other religion from your past?

*shaking head* No I don't shut myself off from the "Official" position. Because that position is NOT mine. It is Gods. I don't think it's ANYTHING AT ALL like a religion from my past. Many of the JWs believe (and teach) that the "Official" position is theirs...or the elders...or the Society's to judge people. I never have done that and hope I never will. It is a 180 degree difference to me.
I hope that explains where I come from...
...like I said earlier - I don't take offense to this type of debate as long as it addresses the issue and does not become a flame war. Everyone's comments are always welcome. I choose to respond to those that aren't argumentative or red herrings.
Andi
JT

To JT and anyone else that isn't a Christian or is a Christian and does NOT believe what I believe...it's okay.

Well THANKS- for I will be the first to admit I was wrong-- for I have never met anyone who indicated that they were BA who didn't believe that Being "Born Again" was an absolute requirement to have the favor of god
MY BAD
Nikita

"The amazing thing about the whole joy of Christianity is it's something you can't find, it's something that has to find you. That once we submit ourselves to God, the things of God chase us down like dogs, and you can't escape them."-Rich Mullins
Being BA is being God's. Is my life representative of Jesus? Not only by my words, but by my deeds? If someone looks at me, do they see Jesus? Or do they see a Presbyterian or Southern Baptist or Methodist or Catholic? I think Jesus looks at many of those who call themselves "Christians" in much the same way he looked at the Pharisees.
The Jesus I want to represent is a guy who hang out with people from all walks of life and didn't judge them. But at the same time, I would tell you to look past me and others who would say they are Christian, for we each bring our own unique experiences and we are just trying to be as honest as we can be from those experiences.
It is difficult for me to not be judgemental. It is hard to be loving and humble and vulnerable, but I strive to do it because of my relationship with Jesus, not for anyone else. Not even my husband! ( a SB pastor! )
Just my .02 cents
Leslie
bluesapphire

Ditto what JT said. This is the first experience I have EVER had in my entire life where a "born again" person doesn't admit that you have to be "born again" to be saved. My bad too!
Andi, yes there are many Catholics that are catholic but don't believe in every doctrine the church teaches (purgatory, birth control, etc.). That's because most Catholics are only cultural catholics (myself included).
But to be involved in something like Calvary Chapel or Grapevine or whatever, well that's not cultural. That's a decision and almost everyone there is a "born again" person who took the altar call and said the prayer .. or is on their way to doing it.
And I don't argue that there are not *some* people like for instance children of "born again" parents that don't subscribe to the teaching that you have to be "born again" ala saying the prayer. I'm sure there are quite many. Obviously you're one of them.
But ... do you claim that MOST (as in the majority) don't believe and teach and have the world view that unless you say those words, "Jesus I accept you into my heart bla bla bla...." that they are not saved? Do you believe that? Out of all the churchgoers in your church, how many don't believe that, Andi? How many would agree with you? That's the point.
I am saying that it is 1) not scriptural; and 2) not historical.
Brummie

*arrives at the meeting - late as usual*
Spanner:
So if you are not "born again", then you can't be a Christian, and vice-versa?
Spanner "born again" christians would recognise that people who dont use the word "born again" are still Christian, they just use different descriptions. The word "Christian" is an identifying mark whether it has the words "born again" at the front or not. If a person belongs to Christ then the samantics are irrelevant. That, I believe, is the Christian veiwpoint. Anyone, whosoever, etc can be a Christian, its not dependant on the terminology but on the relationship they have with God. Remember it was in Antioch (sp?) that they first began calling them Christians, yet each was saved before being called such...its all about relationship and not titles.
And if one is not a Christian, then one will not be saved?
From what?
Saved from the consequences of sin, which is seperation from God. Sin has consequences.
Brummie

born again Christians

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