born again Christians

by ymrah 212 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  SpannerintheWorks

  Littletoe,

  Spanner:
  I never discussed salvation, only being "born again",

  I was responding to this, when you said:

  It's about "grace", not "works" (Ephesians 2). John 3 is the conversation with Nicodemas, where the necessity of being born again is discussed.

  You quoted from Esp. 2, which reads:

  Esp. 2:8 "for it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith -and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God." (NIV, emphasis mine).

  And you also said:

  IMHO All Christians are born again, and only those who are born again are Christians.

  So, putting this all together, my original questions are still valid:

  Are you saying that one needs to be "born "again" to be a Chistian, and vice-versa?

  ...This leads that person to be "saved"?

  ...Saved from what?

  I am not trying to pick a fight with you, LT, these are legitimate questions.

  Spanner
• 

  LittleToe

  Spanner:
  I know you're not picking a fight, it's cool

  IMHO the Christian path involves being "born again", which is a "connection with God".
  In my case this was forged simultaneous to acquiring a personal relationship with Christ.

  Paul tells us that we can't earn it, but it's a free gift, if we would just accept it (this perhaps explains why some people pray for it the way they do, as BlueSapphire commented on).

  Jesus tells us that without this we cannot see, or enter, the kindgom of God (John 3)

  As Borgfree commented, and I would agree with, Hell is certainly eternal separation from God. I would further elaborate with my own personal expression on this subject, which I addressed to my wife when she asked me if I suddenly felt that I wanted to go to heaven:
  "I would rather be in Hell with Christ, than Heaven without Him."

  In retrospect, being without Christ left a void in my life, which different people try to fill in different ways. I had tried to fill it with being a good JW, reaching out to be a CO, etc.
  Now I am FAR more fulfilled, and it all seems so very simple - accept Christ as your Lord.

  It's a personal and subjective journey, and no two individuals will have identical experiences along the way.
• 

  SpannerintheWorks

  LT,

  Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your explanation as to the Bible's teaching that to "see" the kingdom of God, one needs to be "born again", and that through "faith", (a free gift from God), one will be "saved".

  What has been left unanswered is this: "saved" from what?

  Thanks.

  Spanner
• 

  Dansk

  OK Toe,

  I started my own spiritual journey some weeks ago and I have great difficulty in understanding how Christ can save when all the research I've done since leaving the Borg clearly indicates the Bible is a lie. For example, the four gospels are recognised as NOT being written by those they are credited with. Hebrews was NOT written by Paul. Revelation is a fraud.

  If you really research this subject you'll find the books in the Bible were once never considered inspired. Also, the books now in the Bible were put in at the expense of others that were taken out. Interestingly, the Church Fathers once considered the books taken out to be more inspired than those that are in it today. The bottom line is, the Bible we have today is a result of some really nasty bloodletting whereupon whoever had the greater power chose what should be put in the Bible. You either accepted it or were banished (or put to death!).

  Then, some dude said, these are inspired, believe or be damned. All this is FACT (I'm cutting out large bits of information to cover the main points.When you visit here I'll show you the evidence!). Therefore, if the Bible is false and NOT inspired who, then, is bringing you to Christ? Christ, himself, cannot be proven. Seriously!!

  I'm sorry, Toe (and I know I'm not likely to convince you here), but please do some serious research. I, too, have had a "spiritual" experience, but I believe I'm closer to the truth than I ever was before by pursuing education.

  I, too, am not looking for a fight.

  Dansk
• 

  LittleToe

  Spanner:
  Saved from the proposition of dying and our bodies merely becoming manure, and should we have an eternal spirit, a spirit that continues unconnected to "God".

  I would rather have the question phrased:
  Saved to what?

  The answer - an eternal connection with "God".

  Being "born again" is the making of that connection, the turning on of the lightbulb, the change from death to life, and any other posotive analogy you can think of throwing at it.

  Btw, I wasn't just presenting the biblical viewpoint, I was giving you an experiential viewpoint, with scriptural support.
  Would you rather it framed another way?
  Maybe from the viewpoint of a Kundalini connection to the "cosmic all"?
• 

  SpannerintheWorks

  LT,

  So essentially what you are saying is that you must be "born again" to become a Christian, which leads to an eternal existence with God?

  SO, correct me if I am wrong, "born again" Christians are the only "true" Christians, and the only Christians (and indeed people, period), who will gain this "eternal life" and ALL other Christians/people will become "manure", as you put it?

  Spanner
• 

  LittleToe

  Dansk:
  It's ok, anyone who know's me, know's that it takes a lot to get me riled. You haven't come even close to any of my buttons

  I would refer you to Shelby's comments (she posts as AGuest) regarding what the "Word of God" is.
  I've done a goodly amount of research, and expressed some of my viewpoints on that subject, a number of times (btw, I personally hold that Hebrews wasn't written by Paul, too).
  Simply put, you're barking up the wrong tree, if you think you know where my belief's lie.
  What I've expressed on this board has merely been the tip of the iceberg, and is usually presented from a Christo-biblical viewpoint, since that is the one most readily understood.

  I've spent around two years on this rollercoaster, and it just gets faster...
  Meanwhile, with all humility, I acknowledge myself to be a spiritual babe, a neophyte.

  IMHO - if you want to comprehend the Christian way, start with the words ascribed to Christ, and see what picture you get. Don't fall for accepting the JW caricature of Jesus.
  You'll find a non-JW bible helpful, too, and I personally recommend the old King James Version. IMHO it's more Spirit filled, and makes you think about what's being said, due to the language. Once you've done that, then work on the words ascribed to His followers.
  I would further recommend that you start with the gospel of love (John), since it all boils down to that, in the end.
• 

  NeonMadman

  He forgot the part about giving, collection baskets, and tithing, My experience shows that no matter what the subject of the sermon is, it always ends up on those 3 points.

  Then I watch the Pastor drive away in their Caddy/Lincoln/Mercedes/BMW/Lexus.

  Has your "experience" actually taken you to any churches, or is it based upon the hearsay circulated at the Kingdom Hall?

  I ask this only because I visited a LOT of churches after leaving the borg, and I still haven't found any that conform to this oft-repeated JW stereotype. I have never yet heard a sermon that focused on "giving, collection baskets, and tithing". And most of the time I attend a Baptist church here in Northern New Jersey, one of the most affluent areas of the country, where one would think that people are more money-conscious than in less affluent areas. Baptists are a denomination that encourage tithing, but I've yet to hear a sermon focusing on the subject. And the pastor drives a cheap car. I forget the make (I'm not a car buff), but it's no "Caddy/Lincoln/Mercedes/BMW/Lexus" or anything of the sort. It's not even as nice as my Chevy Impala.

  I don't doubt that there are some money-hungry churches out there; by far the minority, I would think. If you end up in one, find another church. But this idea that all churches are like that is just another WTS deception, designed to keep the rank and file from discovering that there might be spiritual life elsewhere.
• 

  LittleToe

  Spanner:
  Now I never said that, did I?

  All I said is that becoming a "born again" Christian is an "eternal connection with God".
  That has been my path, and it's tried and tested.

  As for any other path, well...
  ...that wouldn't be within my experience, though I have experienced many things that are attributed to other frameworks.
• 

  SpannerintheWorks

  Littletoe,

  Now I never said that, did I?

  Well, maybe not absolutely verbatim, but then again, you may notice that I qualified my statement by saying:

  So essentially what you are saying

  Yes?

  You see, I just put your various points together to come to that conclusion, viz:

  IMHO All Christians are born again, and only those who are born again are Christians

  It's about "grace", not "works" (Ephesians 2).

  [I.E: Esp. 2:8 "for it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith -and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God." (NIV, emphasis mine)].

  IMHO the Christian path involves being "born again", which is a "connection with God".

  Jesus tells us that without this we cannot see, or enter, the kindgom of God (John 3)

  Saved from the proposition of dying and our bodies merely becoming manure, and should we have an eternal spirit, a spirit that continues unconnected to "God".

  an eternal connection with "God".

  Being "born again" is the making of that connection

  In the light of the above statements, do you see the rationality of my previous post, and the (still) unanswered questions contained therein?

  Spanner