by ymrah 212 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Hi JT,
Glad to have you here.
The Mere concept of "BornAgain" by definition means anyone who ain't- buddist, muslium, etc is Sh!t out of luck when it comes to serving the Divine one, the entire purpose of religion is to provide folks with a feeling that somehow they are Special, how often have we heard the phrase "I am Blessed"
Exactly! What a guy!
Dansk
JT
Just like indiviuals jw may not personally believe that anyone not a jw will die, the same came be said of Born Again persons, but the official position of the church is IF YOU AIN'T BORN AGAIN you up creek with no paddle bottom line
I disagree. The same cannot be said of Born Againers. There are a couple differences.
First off, for true Christians there is no "official position" because the "official position" is up to God...not us. True Bible believing Christians know they SHOULD NOT judge others hearts. I can look at a fellow church goer and see their actions don't reflect their admission of being a Christian. I don't look at him judgementally and say "Hypocrite!". I try to look beyond what I see and realize "Wow. There's got to be more to that picture. I'm glad God can see it, because I don't need to." It's not my business to judge whether or not another has salvation - unlike JWs who are quick to judge whether or not you are a JW.
JWs are very arrogant about their "relationship" with God/WTS. (There is no difference between the two to them.) True Born Againers believe that ultimately without having accepted Christ's gift of salvation, they are NOTHING. I am a Christian because I know without Christ/God, I am and have nothing or importance. It's not because I believe I'm better than you, like many JWs believe. NO MATTER what I do I CANNOT and will NEVER be good enough to go to heaven. But that's okay because I'm not expected to "buy" my way up there with good works. I'm expected to do good works, but it's not what gets me up there. It's taken years for me to understand UNCONDITIONAL love from heaven. It's still hard. But I accept the fact that it's given and I'm grateful for it. And in the meantime I'm happy to do good works and help others have an understanding of what they could experience with God as well.
Andi
Like Jesus said: No one goes before him, except through me. Our relationship with Jesus is within our hearts. To be born again, means to have accepted the eternal life offered by Christ in exchange for our loyalty to him. It doesn't take a church to accept that, you either do or you don't. Our relationship with our Creator is a very personal one, and one that is very precious. Doctrine is good, and it can be bandied about all it can, but the very essence of our "religion" per se, is that we accept what Christ has offered us, freely acknowledging that he is our savior and we accepted his gift of life by grace. It's very simple. It's hard for JW's to understand, because they believe that you have to work HOURS, and do this and that, to achieve that salvation, and THEN you might not even get it. With born-agains, you just accept that free gift and try to abide by the golden rule. God knows, believe me, your heart condition.
Country Girl
The Born Again Christians believe everyone else is going to die. Only theirs is worse ... you go to an eternal hell where you are tortured forever and ever. No thanks! And Born Againers can be just as pushy as JWs if not moreso.
Bluesapphire,
Please don't make generalizations like this. Because it's not true. It bothers me that so many here criticize the WTS for making sweeping generalizations of exJWs or other "wordlings". How is this comment any different? What it boils down to is that JWs DON'T KNOW THE WORLD, right? Same is true here with your comment about Born Againers. What you THINK may be true (media, JW think, etc.) may not be true over the whole scope of things. At least be open enough to know that there are some Born Again Christians that have the humility to know THEY DON'T have all the answers. Just because we have a title of being "Born Again" does not mean we subscribe to everything YOU attach to it or have been told to attach to it.
Andi
Spanner (to LittleToe):
So essentially what you are saying is that you must be "born again" to become a Christian, which leads to an eternal existence with God?
No, if you read LT's last post, he's perfectly willing to cut the "Christian" middleman out altogether, if that's the way it happens to *you*.
SO, correct me if I am wrong, "born again" Christians are the only "true" Christians,
I believe LT would say you have it backwards: to be connected to god via the Christ "channel" is to be born again and to be a Christian. But he concedes that to be Christian may not be the only way to be born again.
and the only Christians (and indeed people, period), who will gain this "eternal life" and ALL other Christians/people will become "manure", as you put it?
I'm beginning to think that LT sees "being born again" in terms of reclaiming one's natural human birthright. That separation from god is not a punishment but a preventable tragedy.
LT, correct me if I'm wrong...?
GentlyFeral
still universalist
(edited for intellectual clarity)
Billygoat and Country Girl. Hi,
What about JT's point that if you're a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, etc., and have never come to Christ you're damned! Don't you think that Christianty is now basically a Western concept? It seems to me that we in the West accept Christianity with a passion. "We" have chosen it to be the religion above all others -- but believe me, if you do some simple research you'll be staggered!
I was JW for 19 years and, obviously, Jesus had an integral place in my belief. But now, sheesh, I've found the Bible is not all it is purported. I didn't come to this conclusion lightly. I researched!!
I think the bottom line is that if one's religion makes them feel good and contains immense altruism, then, fine, that's great - as long as it isn't shoved onto others. For me, the Bible is basically a book of fables having taken its root in Egypt (that might seem far-fetched, but you'd be VERY surprised).
I just get the impression that most people have this NEED to believe in something. The story of Jesus is a nice one because he laid down his life so that anyone believing in him can be saved. Yes, wonderful - but is it true? One cannot just pick up the Bible and say it is true. One has to PROVE it is true. Unfortunately, there's more evidence today AGAINST it's being inspired of God than there is in its favour.
Like I said, I haven't taken to knocking the Bible easily. I'm searching for truth. I now question everything until it can be proven. Read my earlier post to Little Toe in this thread regarding books put in the Bible and those taken out. It is all FACT! It is all documented!
Have you heard of the 'Protevangelion'? No! Well, it's also known as the 'Gospel of James' (not the book of James). It was written before the four gospels and when you place the gospels alongside it it is obvious they've been copied from it - and that's just ONE example of Bible falsehood!
Dansk
The Born Again Christians believe everyone else is going to die.
I really do not understand why some think that if you choose not to accept the gift of life from God, that it is somehow unfair and a horrible atrocity. Every human that has ever lived has died, as far as anyone knows.
The gift of life is offered free to everyone, Christ paid for that gift. If we choose to say, as some have, that if there is a God, He is vicious and they want nothing to do with Him, that is their choice, so, if they spend eternity separated from Him how is that unfair or unjust?
The bible only takes us to a certain point into the future, it does not give us answers to everything that the future has in store. For example, Christians believe, as the bible states, that we will be kings and priests. If every living human will be in heaven, who would we be kings and priests to?
There are different theories about who will be on this earth or another earth and I do not know anyone who knows that answer for sure.
I think we have seen the wonderful works of our God for our entire lives, creation, the universe, etc. why cannot we just trust in the God, who is love, to be just and fair?
Borgfree
Many spiritual paths have the surrender of the "ego" at their heart. In the Christian path, this is submitted to another - Christ.
This surrender is sometimes accompanied by an acute "spiritual experience", as it was in my case. If you want a biblical example, then Acts 9 is as good a place to start as any.
IMHO Christianity offers a far easier road to making a connection with God, because it has something intellectually / emotionally / etc. / etc. easier to grasp at it's core - a personal relationship with a person who loves you - AKA Jesus.
Even a child can grasp that concept, which I believe you will also find at the heart of Jesus teachings.
I offer in support of that belief, examples of the Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts 8:27) and the Philippian Jailer (Acts 16:27). Neither needed a six month bible study and a course of anti-biotics, to come to "know" Christ. Nor did they need to study Yoga for five years.
BlueSapphire:
I never said that infants couldn't receive the Holy Spirit. In fact I believe quite the reverse, given the account of John the Baptist. I would just suggest that just because a child has been baptised with water, it doesn't necessarily follow that it has also been baptised with the Spirit.
Spanner:
I've already answered you. You either don't know it yet, else are being deliberately obtuse
JT:
What Billygoat said.
Every "born again" Christian that I've ever met has been unquantifiably humbled by the experience.
It sounds like you've had a bad experience, in dealing with a particular denomination. Please, please, please don't tar us all with the same brush, of being bible thumping, dogmatic, bigots.
LT, of the "I've never thumped a bible in my life" class
LT,
Spanner:
I've already answered you. You either don't know it yet, else are being deliberately obtuse
You haven't answered my questions, and you know it!
Spanner
Spanner:
So essentially what you are saying is that you must be "born again" to become a Christian, which leads to an eternal existence with God?
That much I'll concede overtly, and would heartily recommend it to you as something to seek.
GentlyFeral:
I'm beginning to think that LT sees "being born again" in terms of reclaiming one's natural human birthright. That separation from god is not a punishment but a preventable tragedy.
Nearly. Though I would rather phrase it that we are disconnected until we accept the freely offered connection. Remaining disconnected is a preventable tragedy, IMHO.
BUT - what the heck do I know - I'm learning this as I go along. I ditched all my JW beliefs and preconceptions, like a shroud, and started from scratch.
As for the rest of your summations, I can neither confirm nor deny overtly, since I have bretheren who aren't as tolerant of that kind of viewpoint
Dansk:
Makes interesting reading alright. It's been some time since I first read it:
http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/gospels/gosjames.htm
LT - Unorthodox Christian
