born again Christians (page 4)

gitasatsangha

Neon:

I ask this only because I visited a LOT of churches after leaving the borg, and I still haven't found any that conform to this oft-repeated JW stereotype.

I agree. I haven't been to many services, only a few, but money hasn't been an issue in any of the places I've been in. I go to Vedanta Centers some time (a kind of NeoHinduism I guess you could say), and they usually have a place to put money, but that is the end of the matter, unless you are actually a dues paying member of the Vedanta Society that runs the activities in that particular city. I can see why people have issues with Chruches and money. All to often religions have become bloated institutions while their practitioners suffer from want, but I don't think that is the case with many if not most Religions organizations. The fact is that it does cost money to run a Church/Mandir/Mosque/Synagogue and these costs have to be supported by those attending. If a person feels too much is being asked of them by some group, then they shouldn't attend.

DJ

So essentially what you are saying is that you must be "born again" to become a Christian, which leads to an eternal existence with God?

Spanner,

This is an extremely common misunderstanding. Born again is not a denomination or a religion. It is an experience. Yes, Jesus said, "Unless you are born again you will not see the kingdom of God" John 3:7? Born again means born from above. It is not a fleshly thing, but spiritual. It's a rebirth, having died to sin thru Christ for salvation. If one believes that Jesus died for their sins and accepts that He is the only way to eternal life....then being born again is the state in which that person is. There are 'born again' people in all mostly every denomination, as long as they have died (so to speak) to their sins and live to Christ. Spanner, like Jesus said....do not marvel at this. It is a spiritual thing that you are invited to as well. I suppose that the correct answer to your specific question is...." Anyone who is a Christian has been born again." It is not an option. love, dj

El Kabong

Has your "experience" actually taken you to any churches, or is it based upon the hearsay circulated at the Kingdom Hall?

I would NEVER quote as fact on ANYTHING from the Kingdom Hall. As I said, It was based on MY experiences and observations of several different churches. (Charasmatic, Baptist, Community type Churches, Etc.)

I don't doubt that there are some money-hungry churches out there; by far the minority, I would think. If you end up in one, find another church. But this idea that all churches are like that is just another WTS deception, designed to keep the rank and file from discovering that there might be spiritual life elsewhere.

Since leaving the Witnesses, I've attended several different type of churches. I've found that they are basically all the same. Some are worse than others. I've been told many many times to find another church. So far, every church I've attended is the same ol thing. Do I have a bad attitude toward religion? Yeah, I probably do. The JW's gave me that. But that attitude has been reinforced by the people of the other religions of the world. And, I've found that all churches have give the same deception you mentioned above.

It reminds me of the old joke.

A man arrives at the gates of heaven. St. Peter asks, "Denomination?" The man says, "Methodist." St. Peter looks down his list, and says, "Go to room 24, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

Another man arrives at the gates of heaven. "Denomination?"

"Lutheran."

"Go to room 18, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

A third man arrives at the gates. "Denomination?"

"Presbyterian."

"Go to room 11, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

The man says, "I can understand there being different rooms for different denominations, but why must I be quiet when I pass room 8?"

St. Peter tells him, "Well the Baptists are in room 8, and they think they're the only ones here.

Instead of Baptists, you can usually substitue any religion in the punchline. Charasmatics, Catholics, Mormons and so on have all been in the punchline of the joke.

LittleToe

Spanner:
I certainly don't doubt your rationality
The JW's link up verses to make the bible say what they want to hear.
If you link up my words in the way that you have, you paint me in the image of a raving fundementalist. Is that what you want to hear???

Try to read what I'm not overtly saying. The linked concepts, using the red highlight, may help.
Remember, I'm a Christian (dammit) and I have an image to maintain in what I actually say (j/k).

Further, we all physically die and become manure. I meant that comment in that context alone (not in the usual Armaggedon, bird fodder, imagery).
The question I would pose is, surely spirituality is an attempt to reach beyond the merely intellectual, even to grasp eternity?

The journey of 1000 miles begins with the first small step - being born again, IMHO is the first genuine step, on the Christian way.

I will further restate my opinion that religion (per se) is a stepping stone to making a connection with "God". Once we make that connection it then becomes a very slippery stepping stone, indeed. It can assist us, especially by the company of likeminded individuals. However if we place our trust in it, rather than in "God", then we may shortly find ourselves in trouble.

El Kabong

I will further restate my opinion that religion (per se) is a stepping stone to making a connection with "God". Once we make that connection it then becomes a very slippery stepping stone, indeed. It can assist us, especially by the company of likeminded individuals. However if we place our trust in it, rather than in "God", then we may shortly find ourselves in trouble.

Little Toe: Very well said!!!

JT

St. Peter tells him, "Well the Baptists are in room 8, and they think they're the only ones here.
Instead of Baptists, you can usually substitue any religion in the punchline. Charasmatics, Catholics, Mormons and so on have all been in the punchline of the joke.

and for the most part this is so true, different package, same product inside-

The Mere concept of "BornAgain" by definition means anyone who ain't- buddist, muslium, etc is Sh!t out of luck when it comes to serving the Divine one, the entire purpose of religion is to provide folks with a feeling that somehow they are Special, how often have we heard the phrase "I am Blessed"

well what does that mean for the rest-

while i fully understand the need that folks have for religions and religion will be around as long as folks ask life questions --

the bottom line remains, each person feels that his religion put him or her on a higher plane than the rest, the only difference is the degree at which ones religion brags about that point.

by default religion for the most part requires that one not concede that others way of life is just as good as thiers

Just like indiviuals jw may not personally believe that anyone not a jw will die, the same came be said of Born Again persons, but the official position of the church is IF YOU AIN'T BORN AGAIN you up creek with no paddle bottom line

just my 2

DJ

With all due respect El Kabong....that is NOT what most Christians believe. The Baptists do get a bit stuck on having to be immersed and it tends to cause some of them to judge those who have only been sprinkled, such as a Presbyterian. This is a prejudice imo. However, i do think that among most Christian denominations the basics of the gospel are EXACTLY the same. That is where the unity is among the brethren. They are in Christ Jesus. I am friendly with a methodist and a Lutheran and a Presbyterian and a Baptist....yes, true.....and they all have the exact same understanding of the basics of the gospel. They are all born again. They know that salvation is soley dependent upon Jesus' free gift of salvation at Calvary. They are also aware that their "good works" are a result of being Christian. They do not take credit for doing good deeds nor do they believe that it is what saves them. They do good things out of a love for Christ which he has given them to begin with. Therefore, all of the credit and glory and honor go to God, not men. love, dj

SpannerintheWorks

DJ,

Spanner,
This is an extremely common misunderstanding. Born again is not a denomination or a religion

I didn't say it was!

LT,

Can I be blunt? Will you answer this, please?

SO, correct me if I am wrong, "born again" Christians are the only "true" Christians, and the only Christians (and indeed people, period), who will gain this "eternal life" and ALL other Christians/people will become "manure", as you put it?

Thanks,

Spanner

DJ

Hi spanner,
I tried to answer your question. I hope that you gave consideration to the rest of my posts. Thanks.....love, dj

bluesapphire

Little Toe, I don't particularly like religious debates. I'm sure there are Catholics out there who could answer your claim that infants cannot be baptized by the spirit using the bible (Cornelius comes to mind). But just as a matter of logic, why don't you think god can give his "spirit" to an infant whose parents bring him to be "born again"? Where did Jesus qualify his statement to adults only?

Historically, to be "born again" was always baptism -- including infants as can be proven by the early Christian writings. The "born againers" of today have a new theology and understanding. They made it up and even though you call it a "condition" the fact is that many "churches" (read religions) have been started by it ala Calvary Chapel.

Someone else already said it, jumping from the frying pan into the fire. The Born Again Christians believe everyone else is going to die. Only theirs is worse ... you go to an eternal hell where you are tortured forever and ever. No thanks! And Born Againers can be just as pushy as JWs if not moreso.

born again Christians

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