John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze 41 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Your response reveals a fundamental misunderstanding both of the biblical data and of the theological categories …

    Bla bla and your response, Aquabot, reveals that you are still spewing out AI garbage all over the place with no regard for other posters or for the truth for that matter. Go away if you have nothing to say for yourself, will you? Not this garbage that you haven’t even verified for yourself whether it’s accurate or a pile of intelligent-looking, but utterly vacuous crap dressed flowery language. Over 1600 words in ten minutes, you’re not even pretending any more to write this stuff are you? Are you even reading it before you post it?
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    The Arian position you articulate hinges on two primary assertions: first, that early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr and Origen interpreted Jesus as "god" in a diminished sense compared to the Father, particularly citing the anarthrous "θεός" in John 1:1; and second, that the title "Son of God" inherently denotes distinction and subordination, which, in a non-dogmatic reading, precludes Jesus from being God Almighty. While these claims may appear compelling on the surface, a careful examination of the biblical text, its linguistic and cultural context, and the theological framework of early Christianity reveals significant flaws in this interpretation.

    To begin with the grammatical point concerning John 1:1, the absence of the definite article before "θεός" in the phrase "κα θες ν λόγος" ("and the Word was God") does not, as you suggest, necessitate a lesser divinity for the Word. In Koine Greek, the anarthrous construction often serves a qualitative function, emphasizing the nature or essence of the subject rather than equating it identically with another entity. Here, the text affirms that the Word possesses the divine nature fully, without implying that the Word is the Father. Early Christian writers like Justin Martyr and Origen, whom you reference, indeed distinguished the Son from the Father, yet this distinction pertains to their persons, not their essence. Justin, for instance, in his First Apology (chapter 6), describes the Son as "God" and "Lord" in terms worthy of worship, a prerogative reserved for the divine. Origen, while exploring subordination in roles, still affirms the Son’s eternal generation from the Father, sharing in the divine essence. Thus, the anarthrous "θεός" in John 1:1 does not diminish the Word’s divinity but underscores its participation in the same divine nature as the Father, distinct yet equal in essence—a concept later refined in Trinitarian theology.

    Your second contention, that the title "Son of God" implies distinction and subordination incompatible with Jesus being God Almighty, overlooks the nuanced meaning of sonship in biblical and ancient Near Eastern contexts. In Hebrew and Aramaic, the "son of" construction frequently conveys more than genealogical relation; it can signify shared nature or quality. For example, "sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2) describes those characterized by disobedience, just as "son of death" denotes one who is dead. Similarly, when Jesus identifies Himself as the "Son of God" (John 10:36), it answers "who He is" in terms of His divine identity, while "God" addresses "what He is" in essence. This is not a modern dogmatic overlay but reflects how the term was understood by Jesus’ contemporaries. When He claimed this title, the Jewish leaders accused Him of blasphemy, asserting, "You, being a man, make yourself God" (John 10:33), indicating that they perceived "Son of God" as a claim to divine equality, not mere subordination.

    This understanding is reinforced by the cultural significance of sonship in Jewish tradition. A son inherited his father’s name, authority, and status, often acting as his representative or even alter ego. Jesus’ declaration that "all that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15) and "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) aligns with this concept, suggesting not a subordinate creature but one who fully shares the Father’s divine power and essence. The New Testament further distinguishes Jesus’ sonship as unique, calling Him the "only-begotten Son" (John 1:18, 3:16), in contrast to believers who become "sons of God" through adoption (Galatians 3:26). While angels and Israel are termed "sons of God" collectively (Job 38:7, Hosea 11:1), these are metaphorical or corporate designations, not personal claims to divine sonship. Jesus’ unique relationship is evident in His distinct address of God as "my Father and your Father" (John 20:17), never conflating His eternal sonship with the adoptive status of humanity.

    Your critique also implies that accepting Jesus as both "Son of God" and "God Almighty" distorts the plain meaning of the term. However, this assumes a human analogy of sonship—where a father precedes and surpasses a son—rather than the eternal, divine sonship Scripture portrays. In ancient Eastern patriarchal societies, a son was often seen as the father’s heir and mirror, sharing his authority and likeness. Applied to the divine, the "only-begotten Son" is eternally generated from the Father, not created or temporally subsequent, as affirmed in Hebrews 1:5-6, where the Son is exalted above angels and worshipped. This eternal generation, a cornerstone of early Christian theology, ensures that the Son is co-eternal and consubstantial with the Father, not a lesser being.

    Moreover, Jesus’ dual self-designation as "Son of Man" and "Son of God" further clarifies His identity. As "Son of Man" (Matthew 16:13), He invokes the apocalyptic figure of Daniel 7:13-14, a divine-human ruler who reigns eternally, a claim His contemporaries recognized as authoritative (Matthew 26:63-66). As "Son of God," He asserts a unique filial relationship with the Father, through whom divine acts and teachings flow (John 14:10-11). These titles do not conflict but complement each other, revealing Jesus as both fully human and fully divine, not a subordinate entity.

    While you note that biblical language is used to derive non-biblical conclusions, the reverse is true of the Arian view: it imposes a reductionist lens on terms like "Son of God," ignoring their scriptural depth. The Bible presents the Son as the "Word" who "was with God" and "was God" (John 1:1), an eternal expression of the divine essence, not a created intermediary. Functional subordination in His incarnate state (Philippians 2:6-8) does not negate His ontological equality with the Father, a distinction Trinitarian theology carefully maintains.

    In conclusion, the Arian interpretation you propose misreads both John 1:1 and the title "Son of God." The anarthrous "θεός" affirms the Word’s divine nature without conflating persons, while "Son of God" signifies Jesus’ eternal, unique participation in the Godhead, not a lesser status. Far from contradicting His identity as God Almighty, these terms, understood in their biblical and cultural context, uphold the early Christian affirmation of Jesus as fully divine, co-equal with the Father in essence, yet distinct in person.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    More AI generated crap.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    SlimBoyFat: - More AI generated crap.

    JW's - More Apostate Lies

    Slim, I can't help but notice your evasiveness when considering evidence that you don't like. If you are unable or unwilling to address the points that others make, why attack the messenger?

    This is likely due more to your frustration in lacking sound arguments as opposed to a real dislike for computer technology, which, as I have already point out is very hypocritical since you yourself use it all the time.

    All the search engines are now AI driven, or haven't you noticed?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I have no idea whether the AI is making good points or not and neither do you. In order to determine whether the points it makes are accurate or spurious would require hours of checking sources and reading the argument carefully. Have you done that? Just because it looks plausible and sophisticated is no guarantee it isn’t laced with inaccuracies and garbage logic as it has been in the past. Why should anyone take the hours required to verify or refute these AI posts when the poster himself offers this AI slop generated in a matter of seconds. Does he even read the AI garbage before he posts it? So why should I waste my time on it? No thanks.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    That is the biblical definition of "death" - when your soul, body and spirit become separated - usually when the body expires.

    Correct, the human body disintegrates into nothing.

    This is how God shed his blood and died. This is also how Jesus raised himself from the dead, while he was dead as he predicted he would.

    This is where we differ in explanation (I believe). You state God raised himself by means of the Father having the same title as the Son.

    I say, to be more precise, God the Father raised God the Son (a separate person).

    For the sake of conversation, who would be right?

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    aqwsed-The term “mystery” does not imply that all interpretations are equally valid or that our efforts to understand are in vain. Rather, it means that the reality being described—the inner life of the triune God—is ultimately above the full grasp of finite human reason, though not contrary to reason.

    I completely agree. And they are most certainly not in vain when a sincere heart is searching for a clearer understanding. This is why it isn't damnation for the soul that accepts the Father and the Son as beings not of the Trinity doctrine. Although it may be central to theology, the doctrine is clearly not central to salvation.

    I do believe that the doctrine in some ways does enhance our awe, respect and even love for our God. In addition to that it is a fascinating study into this mystery.

    But it was God after all that used the very simple terms (knowing how human beings would relate to those terms) of father and son to help us understand him better.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    I say, to be more precise, God the Father raised God the Son (a separate person).

    @ Halcon:

    But that is NOT what Jesus claimed in John 2:

    "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up....But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered...and they believed...the word which Jesus had said".

    This is the single greatest feat that has EVER been predicted AND performed in the history of man. It is what caused Christianity to literally explode.

    Imagine the buzz, "this guy said that he was going to raise himself from the dead, and I'll be a three-toed tree frog if he didn't do it! Go tell everyone"!

    It was Jesus' prediction of self-resurrection and his post mortem appearances that forever changed the course of world history.

    Admittedly, other scriptures say that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. But, rather that diminish Jesus' claim to be God, it confirms it. All three Persons of the Godhead did it.

    Although it may be central to theology, the doctrine is clearly not central to salvation.

    I wouldn't get overly comfortable in that spot. We are saved because of a legal instrument called "the new covenant". For each person, Jesus trades places with the believer:

    "he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. - 2 Cor. 5: 21

    There are only two names on this document, the believer and Jesus. If you make a deal with the wrong Jesus, is it any more valid than if you sign loan documents for the wrong property?

    These words should weigh heavy: " I never knew you".

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Admittedly, other scriptures say that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. But, rather that diminish Jesus' claim to be God, it confirms it.

    Well, it would appear that we are both right then.

    And the reason we are both right, is because neither of us fully understands how this essence of God functions. I suppose we will keep trying to understand forever.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    So why should I waste my time on it? No thanks.
    @SlimBoyFat

    Well, for one thing it just makes you look ignorant and hypocritical to criticize AI when all search engines now employ it.

    The bottom line is that every single objection you have put forth has been roundly shot down with mountains of evidence from multiple lines of reasoning and approaches.

    I haven't seen you cry this hard since.... well never. Did it ever occur to you that your repeated failures to defend your view might be an indication of a wrong view?

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