John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze 41 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Well, for one thing it just makes you look ignorant and hypocritical to criticize AI when all search engines now employ it.

    Search engines throw up good information and bad with no pretence of having vetted it for you. AI on the other hand stitches together truths and lies in a plausible narrative that makes it impossible to determine what parts can be trusted and what parts are complete garbage. The AI summary that search engines offer is very brief and focussed, but even it comes with an appropriate warning about unreliability:

    AI responses may include mistakes. Learn more

    How AI Overviews work

    AI Overviews use generative AI, which is a type of artificial intelligence that learns patterns and structures from the data it is trained on and uses that to create something new. While exciting, this technology is rapidly evolving and improving, and may provide inaccurate or offensive information. AI Overviews can and will make mistakes.

    Think critically about AI Overview responses. Explore results from multiple sources to fact-check important info.

    It might be practical to quickly double check one piece of information from an AI search summary that is usually just a sentence or two. It is totally impractical to check each and every source in thousands of words of AI text on this forum to find out which parts are being grossly misrepresented as invariably some of it is.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @Slim boy fat

    that just sounds like more whining. Why don’t you find some examples of all this false information that you are claiming and present it?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    I have, many times. It misrepresented Raymond Brown repeatedly. It said Brown didn’t think textual issues were important in Acts 20:28. Brown actually said the complete opposite that textual variants are the most important factor causing uncertainty in Acts 20:28. Then in response it said another thing Brown never said, and another, and on and on it goes. It’s completely unreliable and a complete waste of time.
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Halcon

    Thank you for your thoughtful and charitable response, and for your openness to seeking a deeper understanding of this profound Christian mystery. I truly appreciate your spirit of inquiry and your recognition that wrestling with the mystery of the Trinity can deepen our reverence and love for God. Allow me to respond to the points you have raised and to clarify why, the doctrine of the Trinity is not merely an abstract speculation or a secondary matter, but central both to the fullness of revealed truth and to our salvation—though always approached with humility and a recognition of its mystery.

    First, I wholeheartedly agree that the use of relational terms like “Father” and “Son” in divine revelation is a mark of God’s condescension and pedagogical care for us. God reveals Himself using human language and concepts, so that we, as limited creatures, might have some share in His infinite life. The words “Father” and “Son” are not arbitrary, nor are they mere metaphors; they express, as analogically as possible, something true about the eternal life of God. the Father truly is Father by begetting the Son, and the Son truly is Son by being begotten of the Father—not in time, not by any physical process, but eternally and spiritually within the one divine essence. These terms both reveal and conceal: they open up for us the relational richness of God’s own inner life, while still respecting the infinite difference between creature and Creator.

    Regarding the relationship between the doctrine of the Trinity and salvation, you are right to sense that there is a tension between God’s merciful accommodation to our weakness and the grandeur of this revealed mystery. Many who lack explicit knowledge or acceptance of the Trinity, but seek God with a sincere heart and strive to do His will as they understand it, are not automatically condemned; God’s grace is not bound by our intellectual limits, and His mercy always exceeds our comprehension. Yet, in Christ and through the Gospel, God has definitively revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that to receive this revelation is to be drawn more deeply into the very life of God. This is why Christian baptism, according to Christ’s command, is “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”—a sacramental participation in the life of the Trinity, not a mere symbolic gesture.

    In other words, while explicit, precise knowledge of Trinitarian doctrine is not required for the possibility of salvation (for God judges hearts and knows the limitations of each soul), nevertheless, full communion with God—both in this life and in eternity—is a participation in His trinitarian life. The Church’s mission is to bring all people to that fullness of faith and life, which Christ came to reveal. The Church does not claim that anyone is damned simply for misunderstanding or not knowing the doctrine, but she does affirm that what is revealed about God in Christ is not optional or peripheral. It is the very substance of our hope and the shape of our eternal destiny: “This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (John 17:3). Jesus’ prayer was not simply that we believe in God as an abstract principle, but that we enter into the communion of love that unites the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    Thus, the mystery of the Trinity is not a barrier to God or a test of philosophical skill, but the gracious unveiling of the God who is love, who calls us into His own communion. To embrace the Trinity is to recognize that God is, in His very being, a relationship of love—a love into which we are invited. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know this, are not thereby condemned; but those who receive the revelation are called to accept it in faith, not because it can be exhaustively explained, but because it is the self-gift of God Himself.

    Finally, the language of “Father” and “Son” is, as you say, simple, and it meets us in our simplicity; but within this language is contained an inexhaustible depth, a mystery that calls forth not only awe and study, but worship. As St. Augustine so beautifully said, “If you understood Him, it would not be God.” The doctrine of the Trinity is not a human invention, nor an academic curiosity, but the heart of the Christian proclamation: that the God who made us and saves us is eternally a communion of life and love, and that, through Christ, we are drawn into that communion.

    Thank you for engaging so deeply and respectfully with these mysteries. May our search always lead us not only to greater understanding, but to deeper love of the God who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Thank you for engaging so deeply and respectfully with these mysteries.

    Good for them, but there is nothing respectful or deep about you continuing to spew your AI garbage all over the forum while expecting others to provide genuine and thoughtful responses. You are not just inconsiderate you are a pernicious parasite spreading nonsense masquerading as genuine conversation. What if others treated you the same way you treat them? The forum would consist of nothing but AI responses to other AI posts. A complete farce.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    SB- There are only two names on this document, the believer and Jesus. If you make a deal with the wrong Jesus, is it any more valid than if you sign loan documents for the wrong property?

    And what constitutes the right Jesus? Remove the Trinity doctrine and we believe in the same Jesus. A doctrine, admitted by everyone here, that cannot be fully understood because of our limited human comprehension.

    To condemn a soul to hell over a doctrine that is impossible to fully understand (using very human terms such as father and son to say the least) does not align with a God who wishes for all to be saved.

    These words should weigh heavy: " I never knew you".

    The context of this verse has Jesus stating that "the one who does the will of my Father is who will enter the kingdom of heaven". Mighty works like casting out demons didn't mean anything to God. But love, compassion and lack of hypocrisy did.

    No mention of having to believe in the Trinity doctrine is either mentioned or implied by Jesus here.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    aqwsed-Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know this, are not thereby condemned; but those who receive the revelation are called to accept it in faith, not because it can be exhaustively explained, but because it is the self-gift of God Himself.

    I agree with this wholeheartedly. However, simply knowing that there is a doctrine called the Trinity is itself not a revelation.

    One can accept the resurrection of Christ thru faith despite not actually being one of the disciples back then because of the generally understood concepts of 'alive vs dead', for example. The concept of the essence of God is a whole different matter.

    We acknowledge different levels of human understanding, how much more so does God. If God has not truly revealed this mystery to a sincere soul, he wouldn't condemn such soul for it either.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Remove the Trinity doctrine and we believe in the same Jesus.

    @Halcon

    Remove Jesus deity and you have a different Jesus.

    To condemn a soul to hell over a doctrine

    No one gets condemned over a doctrine.

    He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already - JN 3: 18


    We all start out as "already" as condemned slaves to sin after the age of accountability. We therefore want to make sure we are entering to a legitimate agreement with Jesus. As long as we believe that he has has ALL authority in heaven and earth in order to make such an agreement, and if we ask him for it, and abandon ourselves to Him; I believe that the Holy Spirit as an internal witness will make any necessary corrections in fairly short order.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Halcon

    Thank you for your thoughtful and sincere reply. I greatly appreciate the spirit of humility and reasonableness with which you approach these questions. Let me offer a few clarifications—not to contradict the charity or common sense you express, but to illuminate why the doctrine of the Trinity, even in its mystery, is both more and less demanding than many suppose.

    First, you are quite right: “simply knowing that there is a doctrine called the Trinity” is not the same as receiving the revelation of the Triune God. The essence of Christian faith is not assent to a set of abstract formulas, but a living relationship with God as He has actually revealed Himself—most fully in Jesus Christ. Doctrine only has value insofar as it safeguards and articulates this living faith, keeping us from misunderstanding the mystery into which we are called. The Trinity is not a test of intellectual acumen, but the content of the self-gift God makes to the world in Christ and the Holy Spirit. It is true that one can have faith in the Resurrection, for example, without ever having seen the event itself—because the basic concepts involved are part of universal human experience. But in a deeper sense, faith itself is always a gift, a response to grace, and our relationship with God is not reducible to the categories of logic alone.

    You are also right to emphasize that God knows the limitations of each human heart. No one is condemned for ignorance of the Gospel or its mysteries if that ignorance is involuntary and their conscience is sincerely seeking the truth. God’s justice is always, as you note, perfectly balanced with His mercy. Indeed, as St. Paul writes, “God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim 2:4).

    The heart of your concern is about what it means to “know the right Jesus.” Here, our perspective does not treat the doctrine of the Trinity as a mere theological hurdle, but as the very reality of who Jesus is. To know the “right Jesus” is to know, even if only implicitly, the Jesus who is the only-begotten Son of the Father, who is true God and true man, who sends the Holy Spirit and is Himself sent by the Father. To encounter this Jesus is to be drawn, even if imperfectly, into the mystery of God as He truly is: not a solitary being, but the eternal communion of love, which the names “Father,” “Son,” and “Spirit” try to express. When the Gospel is announced, this is the Jesus proclaimed—not just a moral teacher, not a mere prophet, but the living Son of God in whom the fullness of divinity dwells.

    You are correct: no human mind can exhaust or fully comprehend the essence of God. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a “password” to salvation, nor is its full intellectual grasp required for acceptance by God. What is required is a humble openness to receive the truth as God reveals it, and a willingness not to deny what God has shown, even when it surpasses our comprehension. The insistence on the Trinity is not an arbitrary demand for metaphysical precision, but a defense of the mystery of who Christ actually is. As St. John says, “this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (John 17:3). If Christ is not truly God, then the Christian hope would be in vain.

    That said, our role is to proclaim this mystery faithfully, to explain as best we can what God has revealed, and to invite all people into the fullness of communion with Him. The salvation is ultimately God’s work, and that the light given to each soul is different. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or the Trinity explicitly, but seek God with a sincere heart and strive to do His will as they understand it, are not condemned. Yet when the mystery is revealed, there is a responsibility to receive it, not as a burden but as an invitation to deeper intimacy with the God who is Love.

    Finally, you are right that the use of human terms—Father, Son, Spirit—can never fully express the reality of God. Yet they are the words God Himself has chosen to draw us into His life. The call is not to “figure out” the Trinity as a philosophical puzzle, but to say “yes” to the mystery of God’s self-giving, to let ourselves be loved and transformed by that mystery, and to share that love with others.

    To summarize: We do not teach that anyone is condemned merely for failing to grasp the complexities of Trinitarian doctrine. What it teaches is that God, in Christ and through the Spirit, reveals Himself as Triune, and invites us to accept His self-revelation with humble faith, trusting that He knows the weakness and limitation of every heart. The measure is not perfect comprehension, but loving trust and the willingness to receive the God who comes to meet us—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who desires to share His own life with us forever.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    SB-Remove Jesus deity and you have a different Jesus.

    From man's perspective perhaps. Don't forget we are all trying to get better comprehension of something we will never fully understand since God is only one and only God's spirit can fully know God according to Paul.

    As long as we believe that he has has ALL authority in heaven and earth in order to make such an agreement, and if we ask him for it, and abandon ourselves to Him; I believe that the Holy Spirit as an internal witness will make any necessary corrections in fairly short order.

    One hundred percent correct.

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