Racial Insensitivity

by Coded Logic 127 Replies latest social current

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  Simon

  CodedLogic: Have you ever heard the expression "one swallow doesn't make a summer"?

  That there will be wrongful behaviour by police is not being debated. It's is as inevitable as the sun coming up. That's why most countries have police complaints systems and internal investigations - because with any system full of people there will be people who intentionally do wrong and people who accidentally do wrong and we should always be trying to learn from both to improve the system and reduce the chances of both.

  But odd incidents don't prove your claims of wholesale and systematic targeting and racism.

  As I've already posted - that incident was dreadful ... but it doesn't prove your claim. Single cases never do. Or are you happy to take a case like Michael Brown and use that to prove things the other way? See how it works?

  They seem to care very much when a black man suffers from action by a cop.

  Specifically, by a white cop. Even though a black cop is more likely to shoot them (and both way down on the scale vs chance of being shot by a non-cop black man).
  
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  Island Man

  This is why we need robot police who will evaluate a situation based purely on logic and untainted by favoritism or forms of irrational discrimination.
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  Coded Logic

  that incident was dreadful ... but it doesn't prove your claim.
  - Simon

  It certainly doesn't. Nor would I use it - in and of itself - to support my claim That's why professionals go out and conduct research so we can have informed opinions. And the research shows that black civilians are 21.1 percent more likely to have force (lethal and non lethal) used against them compared to white civilians with the same reported compliance behavior. It shows shows black people are far more likely to attract police attention than white people for identical behavior. It shows that a persons race statistically influences an officers decision to shoot. And the research shows shows that unarmed black people are 6 times more likely to be shot than an unarmed white person.

  These are the FACTS. If you want to debate the best way to interpret them or the best way to address this societal challenge I'm all ears. But you're claim that it's just "one swallow" or an "odd incident" doesn't stand.

  http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

  http://fairandimpartialpolicing.com/docs/pob2.pdf

  http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/bernd.wittenbrink/research/pdf/cpjw07.pdf

  https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/
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  Simon

  Switch and bait, switch and bait.

  You make claims about black men being more likely to be shot by police and when stats are presented that show this is not the case you start talking about people being pushed instead but then revert back to the studies somehow being proof of your previous claim.

  Yes, the race of the officer and suspect do affect the outcome but not at all in the way you claim - the study showed that the only outlying stat was that black cops are far more likely to shoot unarmed white people. I love how you try to use this counter-fact to your position in a misleading way by saying:

  "It shows that a persons race statistically influences an officers decision to shoot."

  Of course you want people to assume it means it influences in the direction you are claiming ...

  Then you trot out your simplistic-beyond-belief meaningless stat again:

  And the research shows shows that unarmed black people are 6 times more likely to be shot than an unarmed white person.

  No, it doesn't. You then post a set of links that a casual reader might think proves your point when they contain evidence of the exact opposite of what you say, certainly not the evidence you imagine.

  Once again, you have tried to twist my views to claim I have said something that I have not because you cannot understand nuances. Saying that a single incident is not proof of a pattern is not the same as claiming there are only odd incidents. All crows are black, but not all black things are crows (or get shot ...).

  You've had your chance to post your views but I'm afraid you are simply here to push propaganda and it's getting tiresome. There are numerous sites that teach a basic understanding of statistics which would enable you to carry on a more informed discussion on the matter. Right now, you're just trying to shout people down and win by attrition. That may be the "black lives matter" debate technique but it doesn't actually convince anyone or help change opinions.

  Again, raw numbers of shootings as a percentage of the population doesn't matter. The raw number of people shot doesn't matter (although it points to bigger issues with society and guns). All that matters for this discussion is how many people are shot WITHOUT JUSTIFICATION and whether, when that happens, there is a statistical significant different between who it happens to based on skin color. The study referenced several times indicates that there simply isn't the situation that you are pushing for.
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  Coded Logic

  No, it doesn't.

  Real mature Simon. I post the statistics so we can have a meaningful discussion about unarmed shootings, use of force, and implicit bias - and this is how respond? Like a little child? "Not ugh".

  Time and time again I've given you a chance to raise your objections but instead you choose to remain willfully ignorant on the topic. This is getting tiresome and it's becoming blatantly clear you haven't taken the time to read a single one of these studies. Instead of addressing any of the research, you've instead chosen to just try to shout people down by way of attrition.

  The raw number of people shot doesn't matter

  Correct! You're finally getting it! It's not the raw number of people shot. It's the number of UNARMED people who are shot. Because their's a huge difference between shooting someone who is armed vs. shooting someone who is unarmed. And if you're willing to do the extra work you can be even more specific in our break down. The names of every person who was shot and the day it happened is included in the research. If - as you've proposed - you think black people go for officers guns and white people don't (a ridiculous proposition but one you've made none the less) you can subtract the number of black AND white persons who did this. Of course, the only way to balance out the statistics would be if 5 out of 6 black people went for the officers gun and NONE of the white people did.

  See Simon, some of us understand how statistics work. And some - like yourself - don't. There are numerous sites that teach a basic understanding of statistics which would enable you to carry on a more informed discussion on the matter.

  The study referenced several times indicates that there simply isn't the situation that you are pushing for.

  Be more specific. What "situation" am I pushing for? And which of the studies I linked doesn't indicate it?
  
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  Simon

  It's not the raw number of people shot. It's the number of UNARMED people who are shot. Because their's a huge difference between shooting someone who is armed vs. shooting someone who is unarmed.

  Nope, it's the number shot without justification. Your obsession with "unarmed" is smoke and mirrors to confuse the issue as it implies that every shooting of an unarmed person is by definition unjustified which we know is simply not the case. The fact that someone is unarmed means what passes for justification can be different but shooting can still be very justified.

  And if you're willing to do the extra work you can be even more specific in our break down. The names of every person who was shot and the day it happened is included in the research.

  That isn't research, from what I could tell it's just a catalog of news reports. There was nothing to suggest it's post-investigation with the result. All I would need to do to discredit that as a basis for your argument is to find a report included that is discredited. i.e. a Mike Brown. But I have better things to do with my time.

  If - as you've proposed - you think black people go for officers guns and white people don't (a ridiculous proposition but one you've made none the less) you can subtract the number of black AND white persons who did this.

  First of all, please show me where you think I have made that claim. This is just another one of your lame attempts to insult your way to a credible argument by misrepresenting what people say to create an easy straw-man.

  Of course, the only way to balance out the statistics would be if 5 out of 6 black people went for the officers gun and NONE of the white people did.

  Not by a long long way - that sort of bias would be clear in the stats and show up clearly in the studies.

  Answer me this: If 100 white men and 100 black men resist arrest and 50 white men and 50 black men are shot as a result, do you believe that is unfair and shows any bias? Please explain why.
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  OneGenTwoGroups

  Dear Sweet LoveUniHateExams,

  Are you from the US? If so did you grow up in the South as a white male? Did you hear N-word jokes since you were a baby? Have you had other whites presume upon your racism and use the N-word and explicitly explain their disgust for the race of people that are called this word? Do you have relatives that are proud of the fact that their high school is called Robert E Lee?

  White supremacy is alive and well around these parts. Racism is real. But blacks being at the disadvantage when white cops are involved is not? It's all equal?

  "Save the whales" never meant that other marine lives don't matter. It just meant we need to stop killing so many whales. Blacks would like less blacks being shot by cops at the current rate. I don't think they are asking too much. And I can see, hear and feel why they have good reason for asking.
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  OneGenTwoGroups

  Are we using stats that are compiled from police reports? You folks know that they cover their asses by lying when they've screwed up and they cover for each other right?

  I would go with blacks having it way worse than the stats show.

  Thank the good lord above for the ubiquitous smart phone or this crap would have continued unabated.
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  dubstepped

  If cops are fixing reports to make things look better why would one assume they're only doing so when blacks are involved?
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  flipper

  Wowee. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

  This thread reminds me of people who say "I'm not a racist, BUT....."

  Mrs. Flipper