The reason 1 Tim 2.5 shows Jesus is not God is because it says there is “one God” and that Jesus is the mediator for that “one God” and humans. In any normal understanding of language, the world and anything, this means that Jesus, whoever he is, is someone other than the “one God”, and the humans he is mediator for. If I say that Jack took a message between Toby and Ryan we know next to nothing about Jack, but what we do know with absolute certainty is that Jack is neither Toby nor Ryan, he’s somebody else.
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat 86 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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aqwsed12345
@slimboyfat
Your analogy is rhetorically clever but ultimately flawed in multiple ways—linguistically, theologically, and contextually. Your analogy assumes that God and man are mutually exclusive categories, and that a mediator must belong to neither. According to your own logic, Christ could not be human either, so that’s not how mediation works—especially biblically. A mediator must belong to both parties, not neither. In ancient Jewish and Greco-Roman legal thought (unlike your Jack example), a true mediator had to represent both sides in order to reconcile them.
- Hebrews 8:6 explicitly identifies Jesus as “mediator of a better covenant” precisely because of his dual identity—God and man.
- Hebrews 2:17 says Jesus had to become “like his brothers in every respect” to be a merciful high priest and to make atonement for sins.
But only God can atone for sin (Isaiah 43:25). So the conclusion is that Jesus mediates because he is fully man and fully God. So if anything, 1 Timothy 2:5 presupposes Christ’s deity by affirming his unique role.
In the same Pauline corpus, Jesus is called:
- “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13),
- “God over all, blessed forever” (Romans 9:5),
- the one “through whom are all things” (1 Corinthians 8:6).
You’re isolating one role of Christ (Mediator) and absolutizing it into a denial of his deity, while ignoring other Pauline texts where Christ is clearly divine. If Jesus is a mere man in 1 Tim 2:5, how is he “God over all” in Romans 9:5? Either Paul contradicted himself—or you’ve misunderstood Paul.
You claim: “Since Jesus is said to mediate between God and man, he must be neither.” But the grammar of 1 Timothy 2:5 doesn’t say that. Let’s examine it closely:
εἷς Θεὸς, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης Θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων, ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς
“One God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”Paul’s emphasis here is on Christ’s humanity, because that’s the mode in which he mediates. It says nothing about whether he also possesses divine nature, or not. If I say, “The judge acted as a man,” it doesn’t mean he wasn’t a judge—it just highlights the mode of his action. Paul often highlights Christ's humanity for soteriological reasons (cf. Gal 4:4, Rom 1:3), not to deny his divinity, which he affirms elsewhere.
Your Jack-Toby-Ryan analogy fails because it doesn’t reflect the biblical concept of mediation. If Jack were the only person qualified to mediate between Toby (a perfect holy being) and Ryan (a sinful creature), and if reconciling them required someone equal to Toby and representative of Ryan, Jack would have to be both.
That’s the Christian logic of incarnation:
- Jesus is God → so he can reach God.
- Jesus is man → so he can represent man.
- Therefore, he alone is qualified to mediate.
So your analogy actually supports the Trinitarian understanding once we correct the categories.
The “man Jesus Christ” in this verse is indeed is not the “one God,” but that’s not the same as denying His deity. Yes, the Father is often called “the one God” in Pauline texts (cf. 1 Cor 8:6). But this is not a denial of the Son’s deity—it’s a functional distinction within the unity of God. For example, in 1 Cor 8:6, Paul assigns divine prerogatives to both the Father and the Son:
- “One God, the Father… from whom are all things”
- “One Lord, Jesus Christ… through whom are all things”
If calling the Father "one God" excludes the Son from being God, then calling the Son "one Lord" excludes the Father from being Lord. This mirrors the Jewish Shema (Deut 6:4), and scholars like Richard Bauckham show that Paul is including Jesus within the divine identity, not excluding Him (cf. Jesus and the God of Israel, 2008). So when Paul says “one God,” he is speaking of God’s unity, not negating the deity of the Son.
You claim that 1 Tim 2:5 shows “Jesus is someone other than God.” But Ignatius of Antioch—writing before 110 AD—called Jesus:
“God in man… of Mary and of God, first passible and then impassible—Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Eph. 7)
This was written just decades after Paul and long before Nicea.
No Arianism. No confusion. Clear confession: Jesus is God and man.
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Sea Breeze
CAN THE UNITARIANS ON THIS BOARD WHO REJECT THE TRI-PARTITE NATURE OF MAN PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A MAN CAN RESURRECT HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD, WHILE HE IS DEAD IF HE IS NOT GOD?
Please just answer a simple question and put this issue to rest. HOW CAN YOU ALL CONTINUE TO IGNORE THIS QUESTION AND STILL FAKE A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE NATURE OF GOD?(See John 10:18 & John 2:19) Either Jesus is God or a liar. Choose a position.
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Sea Breeze
I love how Jesus challenges people to think for themselves and form their own conclusions based on the evidence they had available to them, instead of listening solely to their religious manipulators.
Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.” And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”
But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” And he arose and departed to his house. - Mt. 5: 2-7One can easily imagine Jesus talking to the Unitarians (who have suddenly have gone silent) on this board and asking a similar question:
Which is easier, to say, "I and the Father are one in the same", or to raise myself from the dead, while I'm still dead"? Then, he arose on the third day and visited his friends and hundreds of others.
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SydBarrett
PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A MAN CAN RESURRECT HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD, WHILE HE IS DEAD IF HE IS NOT GOD?
Please explain how Gandalf fought the Nazgul at Amon Sûl if he is not a wizard?
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Sea Breeze
Syd,
Gandalf is a fictional character. Jesus is historical and there are at least a dozen virtually undisputed facts surrounding his resurection. Old fashioned atheist arguments like the one you present here have lost their pizazz a decade or two ago and don't work anymore.
Besides, my comments are not directed towards atheists. They are directed towards so-called believers who are still bound by Watchtower heresies.Funny how atheists feel the need to come to the aid of Unitarian "believers". Heretics are unwilling or unable to defeat my arguments. Makes you wonder what they are getting out of their rebellion? Doesn't make any sense.
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Anony Mous
@SB: the story that Jesus was resurrected in the flesh was highly disputed, even the Bible makes mention that people didn’t believe it and that was with supposed eye witnesses.
Find me any non-biblical source for the un/supernatural events that surrounded the death of Jesus, you’d think somewhere in the world someone would’ve written about an unplanned solar eclipse, zombies or earthquakes. The Chinese, Mayans and Persians were all capable to calculate a solar eclipse at that point and made very detailed observations throughout the eras… crickets about that in their writings.
Do you believe Dionysus was resurrected? Because that is where the story comes from and a lot more people back then believed in the Greek mythology over a Jewish sect.
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KalebOutWest
Sea Breeze:
CAN THE UNITARIANS ON THIS BOARD WHO REJECT THE TRI-PARTITE NATURE OF MAN PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A MAN CAN RESURRECT HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD, WHILE HE IS DEAD IF HE IS NOT GOD?
Please just answer a simple question and put this issue to rest. HOW CAN YOU ALL CONTINUE TO IGNORE THIS QUESTION AND STILL FAKE A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE NATURE OF GOD?
(See John 10:18 & John 2:19) Either Jesus is God or a liar. Choose a position.I prefer the following diagram...
How does it stay fresh for so long? Why does it come individually wrapped? (Who wraps it?) How does the creamy sweet filling get into the center? Either you must shove it down your pie hole and declare it yummy or you are a liar! Choose a position.
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KalebOutWest
"The Point of Existence and How It Refutes/Supports the Twinkie"
Go....
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Halcon
Twinkies don't taste as good as they used to.
Diagrams are unnecessary because Jesus never needed them to explain anything to the common person who wasn't a scholar or a philosopher. Paul himself stated that his advanced understanding of things was unnecessary.
It's very possible that the Trinity is correct when you deal in purely spirit concepts (what shape or form is the mind, essence, love, intention or hope?), of which we understand even less than purely physical ones. But there is no indication in the scriptures that if one accepts Jesus as the Son of God you will lose your salvation.
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
Peter's answer was sufficient for salvation.