The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity (page 9)

Sea Breeze

During the last three hours of Jesus’ death on the cross, an unusual darkness struck the land. This darkness was most definitely a result of God's direct intervention, because it can't have been a solar eclipse for the following two reasons:

The maximum duration for a total solar eclipse is seven minutes, not three hours, and at the latitude of Jerusalem the maximum duration is even less.
A solar eclipse can occur only at new moon, but we know that Jesus was crucified at the time of Passover (Matthew 26:2; Mark 14:1–2,12; Luke 22:1–2, 7; John 13:1), and that the Passover is at the time of full moon (Exodus 12:1–11; Leviticus 23:5).

The New Testament records the three-hour darkness during Christ’s crucifixion (Matthew 27:45, Mark 15:33, Luke 23:44–45).

But it is also confirmed by four other historians outside the Bible: Phlegon, Thallus, Africanus and Tertullian. These historians attempt to interpret the darkness as a direct effect of a solar eclipse which we know is scientifically not possible - but they wouldn't have known that in their time.

Halcon

Of course not. How can God not exist since he is self - existing? Doesn't make any sense.

Then, God can die without ceasing to exist?

vienne

Your interpretation of the nature of man and your support scriptures to prove the trinity are off the mark. Nothing to comment on. You haven't proved your point in any scriptural way.

Sea Breeze

Then, God can die without ceasing to exist?

Of course.

KalebOutWest

Sea Breeze is like those members of Chabad I mentioned who claim that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the resurrected Messiah.

Sea Breeze is asked:

Then, God can die without ceasing to exist?

Sea Breeze replies:

Of course.

We might tend to forget that many of the people we shared our time with in the Watchtower were the ideal profile of a cult member. If it were not the Jehovah's Witnesses, it would be some other group they would have been a member of.

There are a lot of crazy cults out there.

Just because they are now exJWs does not mean they no longer fit the cult member profile all of a sudden either. Some still want to "drink Kool-aid," so to speak, but just a "different flavor or brand.

If someone believes that God could die or be a baloney sandwich for three days and then become God again, well we know that person cannot possibly be reasoned with. They already had their mind made up that when their "rebbe" was going to die that he was not going to be dead no matter what anyone said or whatever actually happened to him.

You can't argue with that.

So many here are like that.

Just leaving Watchtower doesn't suddenly make people reasonable or critical thinkers.

Halcon

Sea Breeze - Of course

And while He was dead for three days, He was simultaneously fully functioning and fully conscious/aware in His uninterrupted existence?

Sea Breeze

How else could it be?

Halcon

How else could it be?

If simultaneously, then it was two different persons (both God)...one dead and one alive, the one alive resurrecting the dead one?

peacefulpete

The New Testament records the three-hour darkness....

Interestingly while Marks reads that a three-hour darkness occurred upon Jesus' death at noon (6th-9th hour) and Matt and Luke follow their source Mark, John 19:14 says Jesus was still being tried by Pilate at noon. John also drops the whole 3 hours of darkness element. Once again, the writers were delivering a theological story (mostly drawn from the OT and related works) not history.

The writer of Mark got the idea from Amos 8:9,10

And in that day, declares the Lord GOD, I will make the sun go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the daytime. I will turn your feasts (Passover) into mourning and all your songs into lamentation. I will cause everyone to wear sackcloth and every head to be shaved. I will make it like a time of mourning for an only son, and its outcome like a bitter day.

The 3 hour element is likely a parallel to the 3 day (the Sun/Light of God dead) motif.

KalebOutWest

Peacefulpete says:

John 19:14 says Jesus was still being tried by Pilate at noon. John also drops the whole 3 hours of darkness element.

Correct.

This is due to John altering his gospel to retrofit the life story of Jesus into the Jewish Paschal liturgy cycle. Like all the other Passover lambs, Jesus has to be offered before God by the priests according to this narrative model.

Unlike in the other Synoptic Gospels where Jesus died on Passover day, Nisan 15, in John's gospel Jesus is handed over from Annas to Caiaphas, both high priests, then to Pilate--afterwards we are told "it was the day of Preparation for the Passover, [Nisan 14] and it was about noon. [Pilate] said to the Jews, 'Here is your King!'"--John 18:24-19:14ff.

According to the Talmud and Josephus, on Nisan 14, the priests would hand over the first of thousands of lambs for the Passover Seder meals beginning at 12 noon and stop the slaughtering beginning at 3 pm so roasting could begin.

In John's narrative the high priests hand over Jesus at noon on Nisan 14 and he dies at 3 pm, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"--John 1:29; compare 19:31-37.

John does not record the hour Jesus died, but is obviously playing off of the historical Paschal details, as well as Passover and Christian traditions.

This appears to be so central a theme to John's work that he changed the day of Jesus's death and replaced the Lord’s Last Supper with the Washing of the Apostles Feet and telling Judas to do something that other disciples mistake for instructions to "buy what we need for the festival," a meaningless command if this had been Passover night as Passover is a Sabbath and the day after Passover is also a Sabbath, and no buying or carrying money is allowed on either date if this was the night of the Seder.--John 13:29.

This only appears in John because only in John is it early enough before Passover to still carry money to shop and buy things ahead of Preparation Day, Nisan 14, due to John shifting things around unlike the other gospel accounts.

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

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