Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  aqwsed12345

  It is true that Judaism does not affirm the doctrine of the Trinity, but this does not invalidate its truth for Christians. The doctrine of the Trinity is a theological conclusion based on the totality of Scripture, including the New Testament revelation. While the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) emphasizes the oneness of God (Deut. 6:4), it also contains elements that hint at a complex unity in God's nature. In Genesis 1:26, God says, "Let us make man in our image," which implies a form of plurality within the divine nature. Throughout the Old Testament, the ‘Angel’ (messenger) of the Lord appears as distinct from God yet speaks and acts as God (Exod. 3:2-6; Judg. 13:21-22). Proverbs 8:22-31 describes Wisdom as a distinct person who was with God in the beginning, a passage often interpreted as prefiguring Christ. While these do not articulate the Trinity explicitly, they provide a framework that aligns with the later revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament. The full revelation of God’s triune nature came through Jesus Christ (John 1:1-18) and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; Acts 2:1-4).

  The Trinity was not “invented” by the Church but articulated in response to the revelation of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Early Christians, who were predominantly Jewish, struggled to reconcile Jesus' divinity with the strict monotheism they inherited. The doctrine of the Trinity emerged as the Church wrestled with the Scriptural data, seeking to remain faithful to both the Old and New Testament teachings about God. The Trinity is not a foreign addition to Scripture but a coherent explanation of how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are fully God while maintaining God's oneness. As Jesus declared in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one," demonstrating both distinction and unity.

  Philo's writings indeed reflect Hellenized Jewish thought and describe the Logos as a divine intermediary, but they fall short of the Christian understanding of the Logos. The New Testament identifies the Logos as Jesus Christ (John 1:1, 14), who is not a mere intermediary or emanation but fully God and fully man. Philo's ideas show that the concept of divine plurality was not alien to Jewish thought, even if it was not fully developed in Judaism. The Christian understanding of Jesus as the Logos builds upon and surpasses these earlier ideas, showing a fuller revelation of God's nature as triune.

  Jews historically expected a political deliverer who would restore Israel's national sovereignty. However, the Christian understanding of the Messiah as a spiritual Savior who redeems humanity from sin is deeply rooted in the Old Testament. The Suffering Servant is portrayed as one who bears the sins of many and is crushed for our iniquities—a role fulfilled by Jesus (Isaiah 53). Psalm 22 describes the suffering of the Messiah in terms strikingly similar to the crucifixion of Jesus. The "Son of Man" is given eternal dominion, a title Jesus frequently applied to Himself (Daniel 7:13-14). The divergence between Jewish and Christian views on the Messiah reflects differing interpretations of these texts, not an absence of Scriptural basis for the Christian perspective.

  Christianity sees itself as the fulfillment of Jewish expectation, not a departure from it. The New Testament does not discard Jewish monotheism but expands it to include the fuller revelation of God through Christ and the Spirit. This is why early Christians, including Paul—a devout Jew—could affirm both the Shema ("The Lord our God, the Lord is one") and Jesus' divinity. Paul, for example, explicitly applies Old Testament passages about Yahweh to Jesus, such as Philippians 2:9-11, where he states that every knee will bow to Jesus, echoing Isaiah 45:23.

  Jesus directly claimed divine authority, forgave sins (Mark 2:5-7), accepted worship (John 20:28), and equated Himself with the Father (John 10:30). These actions would have been blasphemous if Jesus were not truly God. The early Christians did not "make" Jesus God; they recognized Him as such based on His teachings, miracles, and resurrection.

  The doctrine of the Trinity is indeed distinct from Jewish monotheism as understood today, but it is not contradictory to it. The Trinity is a deeper revelation of the same God who spoke through the Jewish Scriptures. It acknowledges the complexity and mystery of God's nature without abandoning the core monotheistic truth.
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  KalebOutWest

  Aqwsed is correct in stating that Philo's writings are but a small and limited view--Jewish Hellenistic thought that was of the realm of a few Jews at the time of Philo--and don't represent how Christians developed their views.

  Christians believed they were being visited by God Incarnate, which Jewish writers also attest to.

  The only point where some Jews may differ in opinion is that the Trinity does indeed contradict current Jewish monotheism since Judaism teaches that their God has no attributes, is Ineffable, and for many Jews (if not most) is not a personal God. The Trinity relies on attributes, does away with the ineffable and, unlike that taught by such influential teachers as Spinoza and Kaplan, is made up of three Persons. You may therefore have a definite problem with these.
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  Blotty

  regarding Birthdays: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/94090/why-did-origen-oppose-birthdays-was-this-a-jewish-belief

  While I DO NOT agree with EVERYTHING in this thread (The linked one) I'm more inclined to believe Origen - over alot of scholars.
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  aqwsed12345

  @Blotty

  Origen’s condemnation of birthdays is often quoted to argue against their celebration. However, the context reveals limitations in this argument. Origen lived in a time when Christians were distancing themselves from pagan practices. His comment reflects a reaction to the extravagant, often hedonistic birthday celebrations common in Greco-Roman culture, not a blanket prohibition on all birthday observances. His critique focuses on the sinful excesses associated with certain birthday customs, not the concept of commemorating a birth itself. Origen's argument against birthdays based on Pharaoh and Herod's examples (Genesis 40:20; Mark 6:21-28) ignores that the negative aspects of those events (e.g., executions) were due to the individuals' wickedness, not the act of celebrating a birthday. The Bible does not suggest that celebrating a birthday is inherently sinful. Origen's writings are not infallible or binding for all Christians. His personal opinions do not carry the authority of Scripture or Church teaching. While influential, his views on birthdays reflect his own cultural and theological framework, not a universal Christian mandate.

  Arnobius’ objection to birthdays must also be understood in context. Arnobius criticized the idolatrous and excessive practices associated with Roman birthday celebrations, which often involved sacrifices, feasting, and homage to pagan gods. His argument does not apply to modern Christian birthday celebrations, which are free from such pagan connotations. Modern birthday celebrations do not include idolatry or pagan rituals. Celebrating the gift of life given by God is not inherently sinful and can be done in a God-honoring way, focusing on gratitude rather than excess.

  The argument that traditional Jewish culture avoided birthdays, and that the Bible only mentions Pharaoh’s birthday, does not provide a sound basis for forbidding birthdays. While traditional Jewish culture did not emphasize birthdays, this was a cultural choice rather than a divine command. The Mosaic Law does not explicitly forbid birthdays. Josephus’ comment about sobriety and birthdays reflects his cultural bias, not a biblical mandate. The Bible is silent on many modern customs but allows freedom in matters not explicitly commanded or forbidden (Romans 14:5-6). Pharaoh and Herod's negative actions on their birthdays are not a condemnation of the birthday itself but of the sinful behavior associated with their celebrations. The Bible contains examples of God’s people celebrating life events (e.g., weddings, feasts) with joy and gratitude. Jesus Himself attended celebrations, such as the wedding at Cana (John 2:1-11). Birthdays can be an opportunity to thank God for the gift of life and reflect on His blessings.

  The claim that birthdays are rooted in paganism and therefore should be avoided is a flawed generalization. Just because a custom may have pagan roots does not mean it retains those associations. Many practices, such as wedding rings or using calendars, have historical ties to pagan cultures but are not inherently sinful. Jehovah's Witnesses themselves acknowledge this distinction in other contexts, such as their use of calendars with pagan origins (e.g., days of the week named after Norse gods). The supposed link between birthdays and Mithraism or Saturnalia is tenuous. There is no evidence that modern birthday customs, such as cakes and candles, are directly derived from these pagan festivals.

  Modern birthdays bear no resemblance to the extravagant or idolatrous practices critiqued by Origen and Arnobius. Recognizing and celebrating the gift of life with gratitude to God is entirely consistent with biblical principles. Birthdays can be occasions for reflection, gratitude, and prayer, making them God-honoring events. Jehovah's Witnesses reject birthdays but celebrate anniversaries and other milestones. This inconsistency undermines their argument, as both practices commemorate significant life events.

  The argument that Christians should strictly adhere to Jewish customs and calendar dates, such as Kislev 25 or Nisan 14, is problematic. Colossians 2:16-17 teaches that Christians are not bound by Jewish festivals, Sabbaths, or regulations. These were shadows of what was to come, fulfilled in Christ. Christians are free to commemorate significant events, like Jesus’ birth, without being restricted to the Jewish calendar. Quartodecimanism was an early heresy insisting that Easter must be celebrated on Nisan 14, in alignment with Jewish Passover. The Church rejected this view because it subordinated Christian celebrations to the Jewish calendar, undermining the freedom brought by Christ’s fulfillment of the Law. Similarly, insisting that Christian celebrations like Christmas align with Jewish dates misunderstands the purpose of Christian liberty. The date of December 25 was chosen based on theological symbolism (e.g., the "integral age" theory and the symbolism of light after the winter solstice), not because of adherence to a Jewish or pagan calendar.
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  peacefulpete

  
  

  The highly Influential Alexandrian schools can hardly be regarded as small and limited. But Kaleb's point that the Christian formulation of the Trinity doctrine was not the product of consultation with Jewish scholarship nor exclusively Jewish writings, is of course correct. My last comment was not made to prove the Trinity (or binarianism) was universally accepted within diverse Judaism, but as I said, that the Trinity was an attempt to interpret OT and related Jewish texts in light of more recent Christological elaborations in the figure of Jesus.

  As regards how widely various forms of two power conceptions were, Schafer's book Two Powers in Heaven, argues convincingly that conceptions of God as manifesting multiple characters were pretty widespread, not a small fringe belief. Either way the OT descriptions and conflations of God with angels was a contributing element resulting in later christologies, eventuating in the Trinity doctrine.
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  peacefulpete

  Regarding birthdays....If you suffer from overactive piety, just celebrate a 'child's' day (Job story) or your day of weaning, (Isaac story) or day of potty training, or day of first tooth....

  If you enjoy the pizza on 'employee appreciation day' but begrudge your children a special day, you have your head up your ass.
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  Sea Breeze

  Why dont Jews believe in a trinity?

  Many do. When we think of Jews today, we are really thinking of Pharisees, not Jews who become Christians. Jews that become Christians, are still Jews, just as Jesus is still a Jew. Today, hundreds of thousands of Jews believe in the Trinity. They are Messanic Jews or Jewish Christians. In the first century, there were a lot of Jews of this persuasion as well.

  Most people don't realize that there were around 15,000 scrolls and fragments found in Judean caves in the mid-20th century presumabley saved by the "sons of light" - The Essenes . These are commonly refrerred to as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Most remain privatelty held and unpublished. Dr. Ken Johnson has been collecting copies of as many as he can and has published a number of his findings in several books. He has even reconstructed the Essene solar callendar. The Essenes claim this was the original callendar used by Adam and that the apostate Jews (Pharisees) adopted a lunar callendar after the Babylonian captivity.

  According to Dr. Ken Johnson the Jews today represent what was left of the Pharisees, the dominant group around the time of Jesus. He claims that the prophetic theology of another Jewish sect - the Essenes was essentially the same as new testament theology.

  Essene Prophecies - The following list was developed from videos by Dr. Ken Johnson (biblefacts.org) about his discoveries in translating the Dead Sea Scrolls.

  1. They prophesied that the Messiah would come to earth and somehow reconcile humanity back to God.

  2. They prophesied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin and that he would be God incarnate (God and man) - not just a man and not an angel.

  3. They prophesied that the name of the Messiah would be Yeshua (the Hebrew name given to Jesus). When Jesus was born, 1 out of every 5 Jewish boys was named Yeshua (which means Salvation). The number of boys given this name shows the popularity of the Essene’s beliefs. The people were looking for the Messiah to be born.

  4.They prophesied that the Jews would completely abandon the original, solar calendar (which God ordained) for the pagan, lunar calendar. This happened after the Babylonian captivity.

  5.They prophesied that the Pharisees would leave the true faith before the birth of the Messiah.

  6. They prophesied that the Messiah would ‘come’ (or be made known) 1 shemitah, after the 9th Jubilee of their Age (which was around the year 3925 (on their calendar) and was around the year 32 AD (give or take a year). This was also the approximate time prophesied by Daniel’s 70th week and is how the Wise Men knew they had seen the Messiah’s star.

  7. They prophesied that the Messiah would be born 70 generations after Enoch. The genealogy of Jesus is documented in Luke, Chapter 3 and show that Jesus was born 70 generations after Enoch.

  8. They prophesied that someone from their ‘order’ (their school of prophets) would be the ‘voice crying in the wilderness’ (Isaiah 40). This was John the Baptist and Dr. Ken Johnson says they are 90% sure that John the Baptist was an Essene and that he helped to run the ‘School of the Prophets’.

  9. The location where John the Baptist preached was only 8 miles from Qumran, where the Essenes lived (near the Dead Sea).

  10. They prophesied that the Messiah would die but then be resurrected (which is why they believed in a bodily resurrection).

  11. They prophesied that the Teacher of Lies (the false high priest) would put the Messiah to death and then lie about the resurrection.

  12. They prophesied that the Messiah would come two times; the first time to die for our sins (32 AD) and the second time to set up his earthly reign. The Essenes had a prophecy about a ‘Benjaminite’ who would appear after the Messiah came and he would explain the scriptures and how they relate to the Messiah. Paul wrote in Phillipians 3:5 that he was from the tribe of Benjamin - to show that he fulfilled this Essene prophecy, which Paul apparently knew about.

  13. For more information concerning the Essenes, I recommend Dr. Ken Johnson; his website is http://biblefacts.org and his YouTube channel is called ‘Ken Johnson’. Dr. Johnson is one of the few people in the world who has copies of the Dead Sea Scrolls and he is in the process of translating these scrolls into English. Above list by N. G. Carraway - www.ngcarraway.com.

  If all this is true, it would certainly explain why the Essenes disappeared from history after the Resurrection. Since much of their theology was essentially new testament, when Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, they were ready for it. They probably reasoned en masse that nothing closer to their views would be closer than Jesus; and they simply became Christians. It would account for some of the mass Christian baptisms listed in ACTS of the Apostles where 3000 men were baptised as Christians as well as women and children.

  Today, there are hundreds of thousands of Jewish people who believe Christ is the Lord and died for them personally to provide a blood covering for their sin.

  The Armstrong Institute of Biblical archeology has this to say about one of the Dead Sea Scrolls found in Cave 11, officialy named 11QMelchizedek:

  Analysis

  It’s quite astonishing how closely this first-century b.c.e. document aligns with the first-century c.e. New Testament assessment of Melchizedek. This is aptly summed up in The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation (1996):

  The author [of 11QMelch] … understands the jubilee year remission of debts as referring not merely to prosaic matters of money, but to the forgiveness of sin. The author declares that the agent of this salvation is to be none other than Melchizedek, a mysterious figure mentioned only twice in the [Hebrew] Bible, in Genesis 14 and Psalm 110. For our author Melchizedek is an enormously exalted divine being, to whom are applied names that are generally reserved for God alone, the Hebrew names El and Elohim. In the author’s citation of Isaiah 61:2, which speaks of ‘the year of the Lord’s favor,’ ‘Melchizedek’ is substituted even for the most holy name of Israel’s God, Yahweh. Yet more remarkably, Melchizedek is said to atone for the sins of the righteous and to execute judgment upon the wicked—actions usually associated with God himself. By the power of Melchizedek, dominion on earth shall pass from Satan (here called Belial) to the righteous Sons of Light. …
• 

  peacefulpete

  For another example of the Philonic use of the Logos concept:

  (205) And the Father who created the universe has given to his archangelic and most ancient Word a pre-eminent gift, to stand on the confines of both, and separated that which had been created from the Creator. And this same Word is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race. (206) And the Word rejoices in the gift, and, exulting in it, announces it and boasts of it, saying, "And I stood in the midst, between the Lord and You;"{69}{#nu 16:48.} neither being uncreate as God, nor yet created as you, but being in the midst between these two extremities, like a hostage, as it were, to both parties: a hostage to the Creator, as a pledge and security that the whole race would never fly off and revolt entirely, choosing disorder rather than order; and to the creature, to lead it to entertain a confident hope that the merciful God would not overlook his own work. For I will proclaim peaceful intelligence to the creation from him who has determined to destroy wars, namely God, who is ever the guardian of peace.

  WHO IS THE HEIR OF DIVINE THINGS XVII
  

  Yes Philo attempted to address the oxymoronic issue of the uncreated/first born.
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  slimboyfat

  There’s certainly a sense in which JWs would agree with Philo that the Word is not uncreated like God or created like us because he was the only direct creation of God and everything else was created through him. Saying Jesus is not uncreated but is unlike the rest of creation doesn’t need to be viewed as a contradiction, in fact it neatly matches the JWs understanding of Jesus’s unique status.
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  KalebOutWest

  Sea Breeze--

  I will cut you some slack because you are neither Jewish nor went to Hebrew school nor have studied in Israel (or perhaps been).

  The Essenes, the Sadduces and, yes the Pharisees --all those religious Jewish sects, saw their end in 70 CE with the fall of Herod's Temple. In fact, Judaism was something different when the Jews returned to Jerusalem (along with the Jewish Christians) prior to the Second Jewish Revolt and Simon Bar Kokhba was anointed nasi or "Messiah" which eventually led to the fatal Bar Kokba Revolt in 136 CE and the Jews getting kicked out of Jerusalem (again). There were no Pharisees around at that time.

  While it is true that the religious core and practices of the Pharisees make up most of modern Orthodox Judaism today, this is not to say that the Jews of today are Pharisees. Events in Jewish history that Christianity and Western society do not know about, such as the Emancipation, the Enlightenment, the Reform Movement, and Mordcai Kaplan's revolutionary publication Judaism As a Civilization changed everything--not to mention the Zionist movement and literal return to Israel.

  There is even a Secular Humanist Jewish religion that has become a major, very major branch of Judaism today. With some 46% of practicing Jews in traditional denominations being either atheists or agnostics according to a Pew Research Center survey taken at the beginning of the 21st century, the JPS is officially releasing the Humanist Jewish Society's next liturgical book this coming January. These are definitely not Pharisees by any means of the word, whatsoever.

  As I cannot say I know anything about your Dr Ken, I can say I know about Jewish prophets and the idea of John the Baptist running a "school of prophets." Jewish prophets were "canonized" similarly to the way the Roman Catholic Church canonizes saints. It was a lengthy process, and it did not happen until the prophet had passed and their oracles had proven true.

  Take Isaiah, for instance. During his lifetime, Isaiah is said to have walked about naked preaching destruction and damnation to the Jewish people, saying God basically hated them for the lifestyle they were living. Do you think people believed him? It was the custom for most prophets to have disciples, called "sons of the prophets" who worked as scribes for the prophets. After Isaiah died, these disciples saw many of his oracles come to past and continued his work in his name (and this is why we call some of the writings of Isaiah called "Second, Third," and maybe even "Fourth Isaiah" because these are the "sons" or generation of disciples after Isaiah's death who are writing oracles in the style of the original prophet).

  Because Isaiah proved to be a real prophet to Israel, the Jewish sages canonized him (the person, not the book). The book itself later became part of the Hebrew Scriptures. This is a simplified explanation, but it is more or less how the process worked (though it could take generations and much debate).

  The Talmud lists 48 male prophets and 7 female prophetesses in Judaism. According to the Jewish sages, the era of prophets ended with Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi with Malachi being the last prophet. This makes John the Baptist disqualified from being a prophet and impossible for him to run a "school of the prophets." The age had ended.

  Like in the Catholic Church, the Jewish community as a whole has to decide what is what and when, not Christians. Jews decide who the authorities are in their communities and who speaks for them and who does not.

  However, Christianity does believe that a new era of prophets began at this time. Ephesians 2:20 states that Christians are built on the foundation of the "apostles and the prophets," meaning the Christian prophets, not the prophets of the Jews, just as it does the Christian apostles. For instance, early Christian writers, like Clement of Alexandria and Theophilus of Antioch, believed the Sibylline Oracles were genuine prophecies and that the sibyl was a prophetess on par with the Old Testament prophets that prophesied of Christ. Even though this is not the only example of the type of prophets from those early years, the sibyl is even depicted in Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel murals alongside prophets of the Old Testament. The point is that there were obviously some people with gifts that in the early days of Christianity placed them on par with the Apostles and even seemed to be replacements or similar to the Old Testament prophets to the Christian community.

  But as far as the Jewish community goes, those days had ended. The era of Jewish prophets had ended well before Jesus of Nazareth and John the Baptist were ever born.