Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Seabreeze...???? You are suggesting the ancient Yahwists knew God the same way

    Jesus worshippers do?

    Of course not. In the OT, God spoke through prophets. That all changed when he addressed people face to face in the veiled incarnated person of Jesus. (Heb. 1: 1) Only then, was he fully revealed in Jesus. And the people who witnessed his speech, prophecies and self-resurrection all came to the same conclusion rergarding his deity as these data points attest to:

    • Jesus is called God in Jn. 1:1

      Jesus is called God manifest in the flesh in 1 Tim. 3: 16

      Jesus is called God by Thomas in Jn 20: 28

      Jehovah calls Jesus God in Heb. 1: 8

      Titus 2: 23 says Jesus is our God and Savior

      Col. 2: 9 says Jesus has the fullness of God

      Ignatius (AD 50-117) "Jesus Christ our God"; "the blood of God"; "God in man... Jesus Christ"; our God, Jesus the Christ; "God appeared in human form"; "our God Jesus Christ"; "Jesus Christ, the God who made you".

      Polycarp (AD 69-155) "our Lord and God Jesus Christ"

      Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) "Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God"; He [Jesus] deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ"; the first-begotten Word of God, is even God; "He was God.

      Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) Pastor of the congregation in Sardis "they slew God"

      The Alexamenos graffito (AD 200) Hostile witness testimony that Jesus was worshipped as God. "Alex worshipes his God".

      Alexamenos Graffito (Anti Christian Graffiti of a Crucifixion). 3rd ...


      Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) "He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word"; He was very God; "He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this) and He shows that He is a man".

      Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) "He alone being both, God and man"; "He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God"

      Tertullian (AD 150-225) "Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God"

      Megiddo Mosaic (AD 230) "Jesus is God"

      Armageddon Church - The ancient Church of Megiddo prison - Translation ...

      Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) "the Logos is God"; "God the Word"; "was manifested as God in a body"

      Origen (AD 185-254) "Jesus Christ...was incarnate although God"; "the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same".

      In 325 AD several hundred church Pastors gathered together to look at the heretical teachings of Arius. They took a vote and it was a unanimous vote against Arius with two bishops abstaining. The views of Arius were condemned and the the teachig that Jesus is God was reafirmed.

      Never has there been a more consistent view on a subject so well attested and defended than the deity of Jesus.

      In what way do you see "evolving character" of Jesus being recognized as God in the above evidence?

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Not sure who you are arguing with. "it all changed...fully revealed"

    That which was conceived by early Yahwists was eventually 'all changed' and was explained as gradual progressive 'revelation'.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Here's another example of the extreme personification of the Logos/Word from the Wisdom of Solomon describing the Word as the Destroyer in the Exodus 12 story. The original reads:

    12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord. ..23 For the Lord will pass through to slay the Egyptians; and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not allow the Destroyer to enter your houses to slay you.

    Notice how the text repeated says the Lord would do the slaying until the insertion of 'the Destroyer'. Clearly some scribal sensitivities motivated the introduction of an agent of the Lord who, as it now reads, is effectively addressed as the Lord.

    The Wisdom of Solomon describing this story reads: 18:14

    ...when their firstborn were destroyed, they acknowledged your people to be God’s child. .For while gentle silence enveloped all things, and night in its swift course was now half gone,15 your all-powerful Word leapt from heaven, from the royal throne, into the midst of the land that was doomed, a stern warrior 16 carrying the sharp sword of your authentic command,
    and stood and filled all things with death, and touched heaven while standing on the earth.

    The Destroyer/Lord is now referred to as the all-powerful Word who comes from the 'royal throne'.

    The description of the Word as immense spanning from heaven to the earth is reminiscent of the 2 Chron 21 story of the Angel of the Lord sent to destroy Jerusalem with a sword:

    15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the Lord saw it and relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The Angel of the Lord was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah[b] the Jebusite. 16 David looked up and saw the Angel of the Lord standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem.

    This also reminds us of the immense Mighty Angel in Rev 10 and various other apocalyptic works of the period.

    Anyway, the Wisdom of Solomon passage demonstrates the concept of the Logos/Word acting as an agent of the Lord but also equated with the Lord. This is Logos theology.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    In an earlier post I referred to the Akeptous Inscription which contains the words "...to God Jesus Christ" and described it as a rather perplexing inscription which reflects a high christology that didn't exist until the fourth century. Since then I have done some additional research on the inscription, and find that both the translation ("God Jesus Christ") and the dating of the mosaic (230 AD) were only based on a preliminary publication.

    Since the prliminary publication (2006), there has been a subsequent article in The Expository Times, 2008, on an assessment of the significance of the "ancient church at Megiddo".

    The writer, Edward Adams, Professor of New Testament Studies at King's College London, reports that the Akeptous Inscription which was first translated as

    "The God-loving Akeptous has offered the table to God Jesus Christ as a memorial"

    could also be translated as

    "Akeptous, the God-loving, has offered the table to/for God, a memorial to/for Jesus Christ."

    Adams notes that there does appear to be a space between "God" and "Jesus Christ" but suggests "it seems more natural to take all three words together". Quite clearly there is more than one way to translate this inscription, and I suggest it is more natural to read it distinguishing between God and Jesus Christ, befitting the second and third century, than the reading indicative of the high christology of the fourth century.

    The other aspect discussed in the Expository Times assessment is the dating to the year 230 AD. Adams writes :

    Other experts, however, have contested the proposed dating. Reacting to the initial announcement, Joe Zias, a former curator of the Israel Aniquities Authorities, doubted whether the mosaic could be pre-Constantinian. In his view, the building is most likely a Roman building adapted for Christian use at a later date.

    Gaianus' benefaction [another inscription which said that Gaianus, a centurion, had made the pavement at his own expense] is felt to be problematic for a pre-Constantinian dating of the church. Zias doubts that a Roman army officer of the third century CE would have been so foolish as to advertise his Christian faith in this way....By making (what amounts to) a public declaration of his allegiance to Christ on army or state owned property, Gaianus would be inviting the kind of religious conflict, with potentially fatal consequences, that others took care to avoid. Gaianus' profession of faith would thus be unusually daring for a military officer of this period, which seems to make it a difficulty for a third-century dating of the church.

    So the dating is quite important. If the dating advanced by Tepper (230 AD) is correct, it would be the earliest example of a Christian structure, the floor inscriptions would rank among the oldest epigraphic data for Christianity, the Akeptous Inscription would offer the earliest epigraphic occurrence of nomina sacra and one of the earliest inscriptional references to Jesus Christ, and the mosaic floor would be a very rare instance of a pre-Constantinian Christian mosaic. This makes Tepper's dating all rather unlikely, although not impossible.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    For other peoples sanity Do your own research on this statement, I did one google search that this person just omits entirely from their statement to suit their ideas.

    "Many practices, such as wedding rings or using calendars, have historical ties to pagan cultures" - AQWSED

    HOWEVER what this person OMITS to mention is Birthdays and Christmas (somewhat) - have origins in pagan worship whereas these do not..

    I plan to do a quick reference search on the JW website to see if when they mention "pagan customs" it is a context of worship (why this is not mentioned in the response to me, I am unsure - I assume theological motivation)

    and this person also omits the section in Origen's statement about "righteousness"

  • truthlover123
    truthlover123

    Is the subject creator or christmas?

    All things were created by him - that's scriptural.

    His birth? - check out when Herod the Great ruled and died. Jesus, according to scripture was born in Herods time, making Herods death the prime time to look at Jesus age at that time.

    Also, since 40 seems to be the magical number in scripture, The org says Jesus died at 33 years of age, seeming that he supposedly began his ministry at age 30 and died three years later, however, allowing that Herod wanted the babies two year of age and under killed, then died about 4 BCE, makes Jesus birth back to 6 or 7 bce ( making him 40 when he died) and as the shepherds were still in the fields, it definitely was not the "december" of the year.

    Still does not answer the question of his birth --although he did say in Luke to celebrate his death, so it falls to that of the thought that IF Jesus thought his birth was important, he would have said so. Everything else is conjecture.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Blotty

    The claim that birthdays and Christmas "have origins in pagan worship" oversimplifies and distorts the historical context. Many ancient customs, such as wearing rings or using calendars, originated in societies with pagan beliefs. However, the mere adoption of a cultural practice does not mean participating in pagan worship. Using a calendar or wearing a ring does not equate to venerating a pagan deity, just as celebrating Christmas or a birthday today does not retain any pagan religious meaning. Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves acknowledge this principle. The Watchtower (Jan. 15, 1972) states:

    “Even if it were a fact that pagans first used wedding rings, would that rule such out for Christians? Not necessarily.”

    The meaning of a practice or custom is not permanently tied to its origin. For example, Christmas today is centered on the birth of Christ, not pagan deities. Similarly, birthdays are personal celebrations of life, not linked to ancient pagan rites. This argument commits the genetic fallacy, which assumes that something is inherently bad or wrong because of its origin. If this logic were consistently applied, Jehovah's Witnesses would need to reject practices like using names of days and months (e.g., Thursday—Thor’s day), wedding rings, and even the division of hours into minutes, which are rooted in ancient Babylonian culture.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses selectively reject certain practices based on their alleged pagan origins while accepting others with similar backgrounds. This double standard undermines their argument. Jehovah’s Witnesses celebrate wedding anniversaries but reject birthdays, even though neither is explicitly mentioned in the Bible and both could be argued to have historical links to pagan customs. If pagan origins are the sole criterion for rejection, consistency would demand the rejection of both. The Watchtower itself acknowledges:

    “Admittedly, true Christians today are not preoccupied with the roots and possible ancient religious connections of every practice or custom.” (The Watchtower, Oct. 15, 1998).

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ own literature states:

    “The question is not so much whether wedding rings were first used by pagans but whether they were originally used as part of false religious practices and still retain such religious significance.” (The Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1972).

    Using this reasoning, birthdays and Christmas should be permissible, as they no longer carry pagan religious significance in modern practice.

    Origen’s critique of birthdays is often misrepresented. Origen viewed earthly life and its milestones as distractions from spiritual growth. His opposition to birthdays stemmed from his personal ascetic philosophy, not from a biblical command or universal Christian teaching. Origen’s claim that “only sinners celebrate birthdays” (citing Pharaoh and Herod) reflects his interpretation, not biblical doctrine. The Bible neither condemns nor prohibits birthday celebrations. Jehovah’s Witnesses often cite Origen selectively to support their rejection of birthdays, yet they disregard other early Christian views and practices that contradict their teachings (e.g., belief in the physical resurrection, veneration of saints, or the Trinity). The omitted context of Origen’s statement shows that his critique was not about birthdays being inherently sinful but about avoiding materialism and focusing on spiritual life. This nuance is ignored in the JW argument.

    The argument against Christmas focuses on its alleged pagan origins, but this oversimplifies historical evidence. The claim that Christmas is derived from the pagan festival Sol Invictus lacks historical evidence. Early Christians celebrated December 25 as Christ’s birth based on theological reasoning (the "integral age" theory), not to Christianize a pagan festival. In fact, the first recorded celebration of Christmas predates the establishment of Sol Invictus in 274 AD. Even if certain customs were adapted from pre-Christian cultures, they were reinterpreted to honor Christ, not pagan gods. For example, the use of light during Christmas symbolizes Christ as the "light of the world" (John 8:12).

    Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that practices with pagan origins are unacceptable when tied to worship. However celebrating Christmas or birthdays does not involve acts of pagan worship. Modern celebrations are entirely secular or Christian in their focus. As The Watchtower (Oct. 15, 1991) admits:

    “Still, all kinds of objects, designs, and practices have, at some time or place, been given a false interpretation or have been linked with unscriptural teachings. Trees have been worshiped, the heart shape has been viewed as sacred, and incense has been used in pagan ceremonies. Does this mean that a Christian must never use incense, have trees in any decoration, or wear heart-shaped jewelry? That is not a valid conclusion.”

    Jehovah’s Witnesses confuse cultural practices with acts of worship. Decorating a tree or giving gifts is not equivalent to religious veneration. These are cultural expressions, not acts of idolatry.

    The argument against birthdays and Christmas appears to be less about historical accuracy and more about reinforcing Jehovah’s Witnesses’ distinct identity. By rejecting mainstream cultural practices, Jehovah’s Witnesses maintain their separation from “the world” (misinterpreting John 17:16). This creates a distinct identity but lacks biblical support. The New World Translation exaggerates John 17:16 by translating it as "no part of the world," whereas most translations use "not of the world," which emphasizes spiritual distinction, not cultural isolation.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Well stated aqwsed !

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    Mr quote mining accuser has quote mined himself...

    full context: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1998766

    and it should also be noted I do know a family of Jehovah's witnesses who do somewhat celebrate Birthdays.

    personally Id rather not CELEBRATE anything derived from pagan rituals - wedding rings do not count... I avoid almost every celebration for that reason and commercialism... but that's my choice.. some theologically motivated catholic troll isn't going to change my mind.

    Christmas is now just too hard... I know many non-JW who also agree with me

    Week names... use a braincell - what am I supposed to do? its a day of the week, I do not celebrate it I do not worship the god behind it...

    footnote: I'm not "religious" at all, I do what I deem is right - even if I was, people like AQWSED have put me off religion for life - I would hate to assosiate with any group that deems what alot of relgious people do online as acceptable and this includes the Jehovahs Witnesses as people

  • Blotty

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