Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    While it is true that the Bible does not explicitly prescribe the celebration of Jesus’ birth, the absence of a command does not imply prohibition. The Bible permits all practices that glorify God, provided they do not contradict His teachings. Celebrating Christ’s birth, like observing Easter, honors His role in salvation history. The centrality of His incarnation is affirmed in Scripture (e.g., John 1:14), and its commemoration aligns with Christian principles.

    The Jewish calendar’s lunar-solar system differs from the Gregorian calendar, making direct date alignment impractical. Christianity does not mandate adherence to the Jewish calendar for its celebrations. The choice of December 25 for Christmas reflects the use of the local Roman calendar rather than the Jewish one, emphasizing inculturation without compromising theological truth.

    You asked why Christians celebrate on December 25. Early Christians chose this date for several reasons, including its symbolism with the winter solstice, representing Christ as the “Light of the World” (John 8:12). This choice does not stem from a "worldly" origin but reflects theological meaning.

    Your concern that Kislev 25 does not always fall on December 25 misunderstands Christian practice. Christmas is not tied to Kislev 25. It is based on the Roman calendar, separate from Jewish calendrical cycles. Similarly, Easter is determined using the Gregorian system, independent of the precise Jewish Nisan 14 date.

    The Quartodeciman controversy (2nd–4th centuries) exemplifies why strict adherence to the Jewish calendar was rejected by the Church. Quartodecimans insisted on celebrating Easter on Nisan 14 regardless of the day of the week, in alignment with Jewish Passover. However, the Church affirmed that Christian holidays are celebrated in light of the Resurrection, not bound by the old covenant’s calendar (Colossians 2:16-17). This distinction underscores Christian freedom to determine dates that reflect theological meaning.

    Quartodecimanism was deemed heretical because it clung to Judaic customs, undermining the new covenant established by Christ. The same principle applies to your argument about Christmas: Christianity is not obligated to follow the Jewish calendar, nor is it restricted from selecting dates that resonate with its faith.

    Tradition plays a vital role in the life of the Church. While Scripture is foundational, not all Christian practices are explicitly detailed in the Bible. The Church has always recognized that certain elements of worship and celebration develop through tradition under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

    The accusation that Christmas or other celebrations are "worldly" misrepresents their theological significance. Christians celebrate December 25 not because of cultural conformity but as an expression of faith in the Incarnation. The Church “baptized” cultural customs (like festivals or symbols) to redirect them to Christ, a process of inculturation rather than syncretism.

    The New World Translation translates John 17:16 as "they are no part of the world," which implies absolute separation from societal customs. However, the Greek text indicates that Christians are "not of the world," meaning their values are distinct, not that they reject all cultural practices. The NWT’s rendering distorts the passage to support Jehovah's Witnesses' separatist ideology.

    This misinterpretation serves to enforce rigid boundaries against practices like celebrating birthdays or holidays, despite the lack of explicit biblical prohibition. It imposes unnecessary legalism rather than reflecting the gospel's freedom.

    In conclusion, celebrating Christmas on December 25 is neither unbiblical nor inherently “worldly.” It honors Christ’s incarnation, an essential event in salvation history. The date’s theological symbolism and historical development reflect Christian freedom in worship. Misunderstanding or distorting this practice fails to grasp the inclusive and transformative nature of Christian tradition.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    BTTT,

    John 1:10

    He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

    Hebrews 1:2

    in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

    John 10:30

    I and the Father are one.”


    Kinda reminds me how famous artists sometimes paint themselves into their art. Or, like Alfred Hitchcock often appearing in the backgrouond on is own movie sets.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    deleted
  • Duran
    Duran
    So now people are fools if they don't observe your rules? And they are your rules, just like the Pharissaical rules were from the Pharisees, and not from God.

    You are a FOOL because you keep proving yourself to be one from replies like you just gave.

    What 'rules' of mine are you referring to? Copy and paste just one of my so-called rules if you can.

    Like I said: Most people simply assume freedom where there is no specific prohibition in scripture. That is just common sense.

    'I have said do what you want!' Do you see any suppression of freedom in that?

    YOU are the fool that started off with this foolish statement:

    God's birthday will be coming up in a few weeks. Can't wait.

    Going on to say:

    surely you have heard of Christmas? It's the greatest holiday the world has ever known - the birth of our Creator.

    All I have done since is tried to get you to tell me if you can show in the Bible that Dec 25th is the day he was born and if he said to observe his birth yearly.

    You have failed miserably in doing so because you can't because it is not there.

    You then knowing you can't show it Scripturally, switch to saying:

    How many things in your life do you practice that are not specifically commanded in the Bible?
    You seem to adpopt a position where if something is not given specific permission in scripture, it might be called 'wrong" by people like youself.

    There you are saying that even though the date of his birth is not stated in the Bible, nor did he ask for his birth to be celebrated year after year, that it is okay to pick a date for his birth and celebrate it yearly thereafter.

    I have not said at any point that it is wrong to do so. What I have said in that regard is that being that you did not get his date of birth from the Bible and since he did not ask you to celebrate it, then that day and the decision to do so is not Scriptural (- from or relating to the Bible).

    I then turned to saying if it is not Scriptural (- from or relating to the Bible), then who is the source (whomever) that chose to celebrate his birth yearly and why on Dec 25th, which you clearly have accepted and chosen to follow such tradition?

    Are you able to answer the above and let me know whose tradition you are following?

    Can you answer if you celebrate Halloween? If not, why?

    Can you tell who decided that Jesus' death day is always to be acknowledged only on a 'Friday' and not with the day that actually aligns with the Scriptural day of Nisan 14?

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    It’s true that the Bible does not specify December 25 as Jesus’ birth date, but the absence of this detail does not invalidate the practice of celebrating His birth. The Bible also does not command Christians to observe birthdays, wedding anniversaries, or even to gather on specific days for communal worship, yet these are widely accepted practices in Christian life. The principle of freedom in Christ allows believers to commemorate events in ways that honor God (Romans 14:5-6).

    The claim that the celebration of Jesus' birth on December 25 is non-Scriptural assumes that only practices explicitly commanded in the Bible are valid. However, this legalistic approach ignores the fact that many Christian traditions have developed to honor God and deepen faith without being directly prescribed. The choice of December 25 likely stems from theological reasoning, as explained in historical studies—not from pagan worship but from aligning Christ’s birth with the symbolism of light overcoming darkness (e.g., John 1:5).

    The celebration was chosen by early Christians, long before it became a widespread tradition. This does not imply "following worldly tradition," but rather utilizing cultural contexts to elevate Christ's significance.

    You assume that Christians must reject any tradition not originating directly from Jesus or the apostles. This is inconsistent with Jehovah’s Witnesses' own practices. For instance their conventions, terminology, and organizational structure are not explicitly found in the Bible but were developed later. JWs follow the WTS’ interpretation, a human tradition, while rejecting other forms of Christian tradition. Christianity allows for traditions, provided they align with Scripture’s principles and honor God. The early Church fathers and councils were led by the Holy Spirit (John 14:26), forming traditions that are Christ-centered.

    The question about observing Jesus’ death on a Friday rather than strictly on Nisan 14 is based on a misunderstanding of Christian liturgical practice. The choice of Good Friday reflects the chronology of the Passion narrative in the Gospels, which places the Crucifixion on the day before the Sabbath. This is not an abandonment of Nisan 14 but a way to integrate the Jewish calendar’s theological significance into the weekly rhythm of Christian worship.

    Unlike Quartodecimanism, which insisted on adhering rigidly to Nisan 14, the Church prioritized the Resurrection’s centrality and its significance for all humanity. The Church’s authority to adapt liturgical practices is supported by Matthew 16:19, where Jesus gives Peter and the apostles the keys to bind and loose.

    The selective rejection of customs (e.g., birthdays or Christmas) while accepting others (e.g., wedding anniversaries or conventions) reveals inconsistency. By their logic, any practice with historical connections to non-Christian contexts should be rejected, yet this is neither practical nor Biblically required.

    In short, the celebration of Christmas, including its date, is rooted in historical and theological reasoning, not paganism or "worldly tradition." Christians have the freedom to commemorate Christ’s birth as a way of honoring the Incarnation, even if the exact date is unknown. The Bible does not prohibit such celebrations, and early Church practices demonstrate the legitimacy of developing traditions that glorify God. Legalistic objections based on rigid interpretations fail to reflect the liberating message of the Gospel.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    The first Christians certainly thought Jesus was God. His hand picked apostles thought he was God. How could anyone who witnessed Jesus' prediction of Self-Resurrection think otherwise?

    A mosiac in the earliest known private prayer room which dates to 230 AD states rather simply that, "Jesus is God".

    https://x.com/Historic_Arch/status/1860986885394567246

    This is 100 years before Christianity became the state religion and was supposedly corrupted by Constantine according to Watchtower.

    Ooooops.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I tried to empathetically demonstrate how billions of Christians have embraced traditions that for them celebrate something important to them and at the same time promote fellow feeling and peace. I respect that. Not being a Christian, I embrace the spirit of the holiday, love of children, peace and human kindness. Rehashing the same pedantic arguments offered by captious puritans has given me another reminder of what an unpleasant divisive world view JWism was and why I'm so glad to have left it behind.

  • Longlivetherenegades
    Longlivetherenegades

    Thanks peacefulpete for the comments above. I remember how while preaching from house to house Jehovah's Witnesses can easily disrupt the peace of the homes of other Christians based on nonsense doctrines that has no basis in the Bible about celebrating Christmas or not.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    Col 1:16. That's what Paul said and we know that what Paul said doesn't amount to a hill of beans if it didn't come from the Law and the prophets.

    So where did Paul get the info for 1:16?

    Verse 15 says "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

    Everyone gets confused by the word "God". I prefer the term "Supreme Being". (hereafter SBf) Jesus is the image of the SB, the firstborn of all creation.

    Well, that is a fact. Since the SB said 3 times that Jesus is his son, and the devil knows that Jesus is the son of the SB as stated in Matt 4:3 : “If you are a son of God" and the demons said Matt 8:29 Jesus is the son of God or son of SB, "they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? " And all of them are in the know.

    But where does the idea that Jesus is the creator come from in vs 16 "by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through himr and for him."

    John 1:3 says the same thing but John's biography wasn't in print yet, so Paul couldn't use that. So where did Paul get that info?

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    Seabreeze said "The first Christians certainly thought Jesus was God. His hand picked apostles thought he was God. How could anyone who witnessed Jesus' prediction of Self-Resurrection think otherwise?"

    NO. Not true at all.

    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ, the Son of God"

    Mark is said to have gotten his info from Peter who also said in Matt 16:16 "Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

    Demons are in the know as to who Jesus is and they said:

    Luke 4:41 Demons also came out of many, crying out and saying: "You are the Son of God." But rebuking them, he would not permit them to speak, for they knew him to be the Christ."

    John 1:49 Na·than'a·el responded: "Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel."

    So tell us, which apostles stated that Jesus was God?

    And Jesus did not predict a self-resurrection.If he was able to resurrect himself, then he was not dead. If he was not dead, then the sacrifice is invalid.

    Peter said as recorded in Acts 2:32 "God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses"

    vs 36 "let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ"

    God made him Lord and Christ. Jesus was nothing by himself. Who he is, is because of God his Father making him that way and giving him those titles.

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