Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    While Jesus never explicitly says, "I am the Creator," the New Testament authors, inspired by the Holy Spirit, consistently affirm this truth. Rejecting their testimony as "outsiders" is problematic because their writings are part of the canonical Scripture, recognized as the Word of God. In John 1:1-3 Jesus (the Word) is explicitly identified as the agent of creation. This is not a vague statement but a direct affirmation of Jesus’ active role in the creation of everything that exists. In Colossians 1:16-17 Paul, another inspired writer, attributes all creation to Jesus. The phrase "all things were created through him and for him" demonstrates both Jesus' role as Creator and His divine purpose in creation. In Hebrews 1:2-3 the writer affirms that God the Father created the world through the Son, and the Son sustains the universe. Hebrews 1:10 speaks for itself.

    Proverbs 8:30, which speaks of wisdom as a "master worker," is often interpreted by non-Trinitarian groups as referring to Jesus. However, this passage personifies wisdom in a poetic manner, and its direct application to Jesus is debated. Even if one assumes it refers to Christ, it does not negate His role as Creator. Being a "master worker" implies active involvement in creation alongside the Father. Moreover, if one insists that Proverbs 8:30 refers to Jesus, it only strengthens the argument for His divine involvement in creation, as the "master worker" is not a passive observer but an active agent in the creative process.

    Jesus often acknowledges the Father’s overarching authority and role, as seen in Matthew 6:26. However, Jesus’ acknowledgment of the Father does not diminish His own divine role. Instead, it reflects the relational dynamic within the Trinity. 1 Corinthians 8:6 highlights the cooperative roles of the Father and the Son in creation. The Father is the source of creation ("from whom"), and the Son is the agent ("through whom"). There is no contradiction but harmony in their roles.

    Dismissing John and Paul as "outsiders" misunderstands their role as divinely inspired authors. Jesus Himself appointed the apostles and promised them guidance through the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). Paul, though not one of the original Twelve, was chosen by Jesus (Acts 9:15). Their writings carry the full weight of divine authority and are integral to understanding who Jesus is.

    The argument that Jesus never explicitly claimed to be the Creator fails to consider the broader biblical witness. Jesus didn’t explicitly claim many things in His earthly ministry, such as being the high priest or the fulfillment of Melchizedek's order (see Hebrews 7), but these truths are revealed in Scripture. Similarly, the apostles’ testimony about Jesus as Creator reflects a fuller revelation of His identity.

    The Trinity does not teach that Jesus acts independently of the Father. Instead, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work in perfect unity. Jesus as the Creator does not diminish the Father’s role as the source of creation. Rather, the Father creates through the Son (John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2).

    You claim that Paul's statement in Galatians 1:12 refers only to the good news and not to "the history of the universe." This is true insofar as Paul's statement focuses on the gospel, but the gospel itself encompasses profound theological truths, including the identity and role of Jesus Christ as Creator. Paul’s revelation aligns with the rest of Scripture, which describes Jesus' preexistence and divine role in creation (Colossians 1:16, John 1:3). To suggest that Paul's revelation excludes such truths is an artificial limitation not supported by the text. The gospel Paul received was a complete revelation about Jesus Christ, including His preexistence, deity, and work in creation.

    You state that Genesis 1:26 refers to Jehovah speaking to "another," who you believe is the Son. However, the text explicitly uses plural pronouns ("us," "our"), which suggests a plurality within the divine nature, the Godhead. This plurality is consistent with the Trinitarian understanding of God: one essence in three persons. Moreover, Genesis 1 consistently refers to "God" (Elohim), a plural form in Hebrew, which reinforces the concept of a plurality within the Godhead. The New Testament clarifies that Jesus was actively involved in creation (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16). Genesis 2’s use of "Yahweh God" (YHWH Elohim) does not exclude Jesus; it reflects the unified action of the Godhead. The separation and sharp contrast between Yahweh and Jesus you propose is not supported by the broader biblical context.

    You argue that "firstborn" indicates Jesus was created, but this misinterprets the Greek term prototokos (πρωτότοκος), which means "preeminent" or "having supremacy." It does not imply that Jesus is a created being. Instead, Paul uses this term to affirm Jesus’ rank and authority over creation. The context of Colossians 1:16-17 dispels the notion that Jesus is part of creation. If Jesus created "all things," He cannot be part of creation. To assert otherwise would contradict the text.

    The title "Son of God" does not imply that Jesus was created. In Jewish and biblical thought, "son" often denotes a unique relationship rather than temporal origin. For instance, in John 10:30-33, Jesus’ claim to be the Son of God was understood as a claim to equality with God, prompting the Jewish leaders to accuse Him of blasphemy. Additionally Hebrews 1:3 and John 1:1-2 affirm Jesus' eternal nature and equality with the Father.

    You claim that Genesis 2 does not mention Jesus as giving life, but the New Testament provides the full picture. Jesus’ role as Creator and sustainer of life is affirmed in John 1:4 and Hebrews 1:10-12. The assertion that the Father alone created excludes the full biblical revelation of the Godhead’s unified work in creation.

    Trinitarians do not "elevate Jesus" to diminish the Father but affirm what Scripture reveals: the equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit within the one divine essence. The Trinity is not a contradiction but a mystery grounded in biblical testimony. Your assertion that Jesus was created to "make Him the Son of God" overlooks that Jesus is uniquely the "only begotten Son" (monogenēs, John 3:16), signifying His eternal relationship with the Father, not temporal creation.

    You suggest that since God cannot die, Jesus cannot be God. The doctrine of the Incarnation teaches that Jesus is fully God and fully man. While His divine nature is eternal and cannot die, His human nature could and did experience death. This is the mystery and beauty of the Incarnation: God the Son took on human flesh to experience death on behalf of humanity (Philippians 2:7-8; Hebrews 2:9). Even in death, Jesus’ divine nature remained fully active, sustaining the universe (Colossians 1:17). His resurrection vindicated His victory over death and affirmed His divine power.

    The claim that Jesus did not resurrect Himself because He was dead, and you interpretation of John 2:19-21 misrepresents both the biblical text and theological understanding. Psalm 115:17 highlights that the dead, in their earthly state, cannot engage in acts like praising God. However, this does not address the unique situation of Jesus, who is not merely a human being but also the eternal Son of God. Jesus’ resurrection is a divine act, one that He explicitly claims in John 2:19 and affirms elsewhere in Scripture. His divine nature (as God) is not subject to death, even though His human nature experienced it. Therefore, while His human body was in the grave, His divine power remained active, and He was able to raise Himself.

    In John 2:19, Jesus explicitly says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” While the Jews misunderstood this as referring to the physical temple in Jerusalem, the Gospel clarifies that Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body (John 2:21). The phrase "I will raise it up" is a first-person statement by Jesus. If He didn’t mean He would participate in His own resurrection, He could have said, "It will be raised." Instead, He took ownership of the act. The claim that Jesus didn’t predict His own resurrection simply misrepresents the text.

    The context of John 2 and the consistent testimony of the Gospels indicate that Jesus referred to His physical resurrection. His statement connects directly to His bodily resurrection, as John explicitly clarifies in John 2:21. Additionally in Luke 24:39 Jesus affirms His physical resurrection by showing His disciples His physical body, not a spiritualized or symbolic resurrection. In John 20:27 Jesus invites Thomas to touch His wounds, further demonstrating the physical nature of His resurrection. The idea of a "spiritual temple" is a theological concept tied to the Church as the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 3:16), but it does not negate the literal, physical resurrection of Jesus’ body. Your assertion that "Jesus' body was not raised" directly contradicts multiple New Testament passages (John 20:27, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 15:4, Acts 2:31). To deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus is to contradict the core teaching of the New Testament and the faith of the early Church.

    The New Testament attributes Jesus’ resurrection to God the Father (e.g., Acts 2:24, Gal. 1:1), to the Holy Spirit (e.g., Rom. 8:11), and to Jesus Himself (e.g., John 2:19, John 10:17-18). These are not contradictory but complementary statements reflecting the Trinitarian understanding of God’s unified work in redemption. Jesus, as God, has the authority to take His life and raise it up again: See also John 10:17-18. Thus, Jesus’ resurrection is a Trinitarian act. Jesus, being fully divine, has the power to take up His life again (John 10:18), demonstrating His equality with the Father.

    In John 10:17-18, Jesus states that He lays down His life and takes it up again by His own authority. He then adds that this authority is given to Him by the Father. Far from undermining Jesus' deity, this highlights the unity and harmony of the Father and the Son in the divine plan of salvation. The phrase, "This command I received from my Father", underscores the relational order between the Father and the Son in the Trinity. It reflects the Son's willing submission to the Father, which is consistent with the Trinitarian understanding: the Son and the Father are distinct persons but share the same divine nature and will.

    The statement, "I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again," is critical. No mere human could claim such authority over life and death; it underscores Jesus’ divine power. The phrase shows that Jesus' death was voluntary and purposeful, not forced upon Him, and His resurrection was not dependent on external forces but was an act of divine power, which He possesses as God. This is consistent with other scriptures (John 2:19, Philippians 2:8-9). Thus, John 10:17-18 reinforces, rather than refutes, the doctrine of the Trinity. The Son operates with divine authority, fully aligned with the Father’s will. The "command" from the Father is not evidence of inferiority but of relational distinction and unity within the Godhead. Jesus’ power to take up His life after death demonstrates His divine nature.

    Paul’s reception of the Gospel directly from Christ in Galatians 1:12 does not conflict with Jesus’ role as Creator or His resurrection power (Colossians 1:16, John 1:3). Paul’s theology consistently affirms Jesus’ divine nature and creative authority. His role as Creator emphasizes His divine power, including His ability to raise Himself from the dead.

    You suggest that because Jesus says His authority was "given" to Him, He cannot be equal to God. Additionally, you cite John 14:28, where Jesus says, "The Father is greater than I," as evidence that Jesus is ontologically inferior to the Father. In Matthew 28:18:Jesus declares His universal authority after His resurrection, demonstrating His victory over sin, death, and the devil. The phrase "has been given" reflects His role in the economy of salvation, where the Son voluntarily took on human nature and subordinated Himself to the Father’s will for the purpose of redeeming humanity (Philippians 2:6-11). This voluntary subordination does not negate His divine nature but rather underscores His humility and mission.

    In John 14:28 the statement "The Father is greater than I" reflects Jesus’ earthly ministry, where He operated in His human nature and voluntarily submitted to the Father. In His divine nature, Jesus is fully equal to the Father (John 1:1; Philippians 2:6). The Church has long affirmed that this statement pertains to Jesus’ human nature, not a denial of His deity. The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal in essence but distinct in their relational roles. The Father sends the Son, and the Son carries out the mission, which reflects an order of operations (economy) but not an inequality in deity.

    You argue that the statement "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) merely reflects unity of purpose and not equality in essence, citing Jesus’ prayer in John 17 for believers to be "one." The immediate context indicates more than unity of purpose. In verse 28, Jesus declares His ability to give eternal life, a divine prerogative. In verse 29, He asserts that no one can snatch His sheep out of the Father’s hand or His own hand, demonstrating co-equal authority. The Jewish audience understood this claim as a declaration of deity, as evidenced by their attempt to stone Him for blasphemy (John 10:33). While John 17 does speak of believers being "one," this is not in the same ontological sense as the unity of the Father and Son. Believers share spiritual unity with God and one another, but they do not share the divine essence. The unity between the Father and Son, however, is intrinsic and essential, as Jesus is "the exact imprint of [God’s] nature" (Hebrews 1:3).

    You cite 1 Corinthians 11:3 ("the head of Christ is God") to argue that Jesus is ontologically subordinate and not part of a co-equal Trinity. This verse reflects the relational roles within the Trinity, particularly during Christ’s earthly ministry. The Son willingly submits to the Father in function, not in essence. The analogy of headship in 1 Corinthians 11 also addresses human relationships (man and woman), where headship implies order, not inequality (Galatians 3:28).

    The argument that Jesus having a "God" (as seen in John 20:17) somehow disqualifies Him from being God Himself or part of the Trinity reflects a misunderstanding of the incarnation and the relationship between the Father and the Son within the framework of the Trinity. When Jesus refers to "my God," it reflects His role as fully human during the Incarnation. In the Incarnation, the Son took on human nature (Philippians 2:6-8), fully experiencing the limitations of humanity, including dependence on and submission to God the Father. According to John 1:14 Jesus, the eternal Word, became fully human without ceasing to be fully divine. According to Hebrews 2:17 Jesus assumed a real human nature to accomplish His redemptive work. As a man, Jesus perfectly exemplified reliance on and obedience to the Father, modeling for humanity what a proper relationship with God should look like. His acknowledgment of the Father as "my God" is consistent with this role.

    The Trinity teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons who share the same divine essence. Jesus calling the Father "my God" does not contradict His deity. Within the Trinity, the Son eternally proceeds from the Father, not as a created being, but as an eternal relationship of origin. This relational dynamic allows for Jesus, in His human nature, to address the Father as "my God" without denying His own deity. While equal in essence, the persons of the Trinity fulfill different roles in the economy of salvation. The Son submits to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28) to accomplish His mission of redemption, but this submission does not imply inferiority in nature or essence.

    The Bible repeatedly affirms Jesus’ divine nature alongside His humanity (John 1:1, Colossians 2:9, John 20:28). If Jesus were not God, His acceptance of worship and the divine titles given to Him in Scripture would be inappropriate and blasphemous.

    Jesus’ statement in John 20:17 emphasizes two key truths. First, Jesus differentiates between "my Father" and "your Father." His relationship with the Father is unique as the eternal Son of God, while the disciples are children of God through adoption (Galatians 4:4-5). Second, by calling the Father "my God," Jesus emphasizes His solidarity with His human brothers and sisters. This reinforces His role as the mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5).

    Jesus referring to "my God and your God" does not place Him on the same level as His brothers in essence or nature. Instead, it underscores that Jesus bridges the gap between humanity and God. He relates to the Father as "God" on behalf of humanity while remaining one in essence with the Father as God Himself. As believers, we worship the one true God, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus’ words invite His disciples into this shared relationship with the Father.

    Thus, the statement in John 20:17 does not deny Jesus' deity but highlights His dual nature as fully God and fully man. In His human nature, Jesus acknowledges the Father as "my God," consistent with His role in the Incarnation and the Trinity. This verse, far from disproving the Trinity, fits seamlessly within its framework, affirming both the relational distinctions and the unity of the Godhead.


    @Earnest

    The phrase in question reads:

    "The God-loving Akeptous has offered the table to God Jesus Christ as a memorial."

    The inscription uses the dative forms, Θεῷ (Theō) and Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ (Iēsou Christō), to indicate the recipient of the offering. The dative case and lack of a coordinating conjunction like καί (and) strongly imply that Theō (God) and Iēsou Christō (Jesus Christ) are being presented as appositional—that is, "God Jesus Christ." The use of abbreviated sacred names with horizontal bars (nomina sacra) unites the terms Θεῷ (Theō), Ἰησοῦ (Iēsou), and Χριστῷ (Christō) as a theological formula referring to Jesus Christ's divine identity. This abbreviation practice was prevalent in early Christian texts to denote sacred terms.

    The mosaic dates to approximately 230 CE, predating the Council of Nicaea (325 CE) and thus serves as an independent witness to early Christian theology. The clear ascription of deity to Jesus Christ in the inscription aligns with early Christian practices and writings. For example, second-century authors like Ignatius of Antioch explicitly referred to Jesus as God in phrases like "our God Jesus Christ." The inscription's reference to a "table" likely pertains to the Eucharistic altar, reinforcing a theological setting where Jesus is worshiped as divine.

    If the phrase was intended to separate God from Jesus Christ, we would expect more explicit syntactic markers, such as the addition of καί (and) or clearer grammatical distinctions. Other early Christian inscriptions and texts consistently use similar formulas to affirm the divine identity of Jesus, providing strong evidence for the unity of "God Jesus Christ" as the intended meaning here.

    The crux of your argument lies in the claim that Ἰησοῦ (Iesou) being in the genitive means “God of Jesus” and not “God Jesus Christ.” In Greek, it is common for appositional constructions to involve cases like the genitive or dative. For example, when referring to “God Jesus Christ,” the nominative would not necessarily be required. Instead, apposition allows for Θεῷ (God, in the dative) to be followed by Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ (Jesus Christ, also in the dative, with “Jesus” in the genitive modifying “Christ”). This interpretation fits well with the inscription’s intended theological emphasis: “to God (namely) Jesus Christ.” The genitive Ἰησοῦ modifies Χριστῷ, not Θεῷ, making it read naturally as a single unit: "Jesus Christ."

    Early Christian texts often use apposition to clarify divine titles. For example, in the New Testament, John 20:28 states, “ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου” (My Lord and my God), where apposition identifies “Lord” and “God” as the same entity. The phrase “God of Jesus” would typically require a construction like ὁ Θεός τοῦ Ἰησοῦ, not the phrasing seen here. This specific construction in the mosaic does not include the article τοῦ, which would make the genitive relational (“of Jesus”). Furthermore, Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ aligns with early Christian liturgical language, where dative cases frequently denote the recipient of offerings or prayers. The genitive here functions adjectivally or possessively, modifying the compound name Jesus Christ, not separating Jesus from God.

    The use of ΘΩ, ΙΥ, ΧΥ demonstrates a unified theological formula. This shorthand was specifically designed to express divinity and sacredness, often applied collectively to names and titles like “Jesus Christ” and “God.” In this context, the abbreviation underscores the identification of Jesus Christ with God, as part of an early Christian declaration of faith. The absence of καί (and) further strengthens the unity of “God Jesus Christ” in the inscription. If the intent was to separate “God” and “Jesus Christ,” the writer could have easily included a conjunction for clarity. The lack of καί supports an appositional reading.

    The genitive case for "Jesus" is τοῦ Ἰησοῦ (toû Iēsoû), and the dative case can appear as either τῷ Ἰησοῖ (tôi Iēsoî) or Ἰησοῦ (Iēsoû), depending on the form. The phrase in the mosaic, Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ (Theō Iēsou Christō), uses:

    • Θεῷ (Theō): dative, meaning “to God.”
    • Ἰησοῦ (Iēsou): in this case, the shorter dative form of Jesus.
    • Χριστῷ (Christō): dative, meaning “to Christ.”

    This means all three terms are in the dative case. Ἰησοῦ here is not in the genitive case but in its alternative dative form. In some instances, Greek uses the shorter Ἰησοῦ instead of the longer Ἰησοῖ as the dative. This occurs in some Koine Greek texts, especially in inscriptions and manuscripts, where space was limited. The same phenomenon occurs in New Testament manuscripts (e.g., John 1:17 uses Ἰησοῦ in the dative, meaning "through Jesus Christ"). As part of nomina sacra, sacred names were abbreviated and often lacked accents or breathings. This simplification supports the idea that Ἰησοῦ is the dative here, as nomina sacra frequently omit such distinctions when abbreviating divine titles.

    Thus, the phrase Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ translates as:

    • "To God Jesus Christ."

    The structure does not separate “God” and “Jesus Christ”. Instead, it forms an appositional phrase:

    • Θεῷ: "to God."
    • Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ: Further identifies the God being referenced, namely, "Jesus Christ."

    If the inscription had intended to say “to the God of Jesus”, it would require the genitive case τοῦ Ἰησοῦ (toû Iēsou). The absence of τοῦ confirms that Ἰησοῦ is in the dative case, not the genitive.

    The argument for translating the phrase as “to the God of Jesus” relies on a misunderstanding of the dative case of Ἰησοῦ (mistaking it for genitive), and the absence of τοῦ, which is necessary for a genitive construction like "the God of Jesus." If the inscription intended to separate "God" and "Jesus Christ" into two distinct entities, it would have required the addition of a conjunction like καί (and) or a proper genitive structure (e.g., Θεῷ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ). Neither is present here. So the term Ἰησοῦ in the mosaic is the dative case, not genitive.

    The mosaic dates to a period when early Christians widely recognized Jesus as God. Second-century texts, such as those by Ignatius of Antioch, refer to “our God Jesus Christ” (e.g., Ignatius to the Ephesians). This shows that the theological identification of Jesus as God was well-established before Constantine. While later Byzantine inscriptions might prefer phrases like “Lord Jesus Christ” or “Christ our God,” this reflects evolving liturgical language, not a rejection of earlier Christological formulations. The mosaic’s phrasing aligns with pre-Constantinian Christian expressions.

    The phrase “God of Jesus” implies a subordinate relationship inconsistent with the high Christology evidenced in early Christian writings and liturgy. For example, in Philippians 2:6-11, Paul describes Jesus as being “in the form of God” and receiving worship, indicating equality with God. Early Christian texts and inscriptions often use similar phrasing to emphasize the deity of Christ. For example the Rylands Papyrus (P52) uses the nomina sacra to express divine titles without ambiguity. Other inscriptions referring to “God Jesus Christ” lack the relational connotation implied by “God of Jesus.”

    The presence of a Roman centurion (Gaianus) and other inscriptions commemorating women does not detract from the theological focus of the main inscription. The inclusion of such figures reflects the mosaic’s communal and liturgical significance rather than diminishing its Christological implications. Claims about the larger spacing between Θεῷ and Ἰησοῦ are speculative. Variations in spacing are common in ancient inscriptions and do not necessarily reflect a theological or grammatical distinction.

    Based on the linguistic, historical, and theological evidence, the most natural translation of the inscription is:

    “The God-loving Akeptous has offered the table to God Jesus Christ as a memorial.”

    This translation accounts for the appositional structure of the dative phrases, respects the theological unity expressed by the nomina sacra, and reflects early Christian worship and belief in the deity of Jesus Christ.

    The assertion that the Megiddo mosaic does not call Jesus "God" relies on speculative interpretations of spacing and an a priori theological bias. The linguistic, historical, and theological evidence overwhelmingly supports the traditional reading: the mosaic explicitly identifies Jesus Christ as God. This interpretation aligns with the broader context of early Christian worship and belief, as well as with the New Testament and other early inscriptions.

    The suggestion that the inscription should be translated as “God of Jesus and to Christ” misinterprets the Greek grammar and theological context. The use of the genitive Ἰησοῦ does not necessitate a relational reading (“God of Jesus”) but instead modifies the compound title “Jesus Christ” within an appositional phrase. The argument for "God of Jesus" misinterprets the grammar and fails to account for the absence of genitive markers or conjunctions. Instead, the mosaic reflects early Christian worship of Jesus as divine, consistent with both the New Testament and other early inscriptions. The inscription is a clear declaration of Jesus’ deity, consistent with early Christian theology and liturgical practice.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus: Alexamenos graffito

    The Alexamenos Graffito is a piece of grafitti found in Rome near Palatine Hill that mockingly states: "Alex worships his God". I visited Palatine Hill last summer and didn't get to see this.

    This is what is known as a "hostile witness". In other words, it was created by someone critical of Christianity at the time. It accurately represents the impression that unbelievers had of Christians.

    This inscription debunks several JW falsehoods:

    1. Jesus didn't die on a cross

    2. Jesus wasn't though of as God until Constatine pushed it through

    3. Believers had ultimate love for Jehovah, but not Jesus.

    Notice the bleeding heart the inscriber attributed to believers. Like Christians today, believers are overwhelmed that Jesus would die for someone as pitiful and sin ridden as they are. JW's on the otherhand are hoping to get eternal-life like a person hopes to win the lottery. Most JW's are fairly certain that their good works will be enough to be saved. It's too bad they ignore scriptures like this one: "By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified".

    Anyway, this artifact predates the Megiddo Mosaic by around 30 years (AD 200), and is a strong witness that supports a widespread belief among Pre-Constatine Christians that Jesus was indeed God, the Creator of heaven and earth.

    This supports the conclusion that the hightest Christology is the earliest Christology.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I don’t understand why this inscription is thought to be significant for early Christology even if it did call Jesus “god”. Jesus was certainly called “god” in early Christianity, this is agreed by all scholars and by JWs. Key verses where this is certain in early Christianity include Isaiah 9.6, John 1.1, and John 20.28, and Hebrews 1.8 is likely. Far less likely are Romans 9.5 and a few others, but not impossible. Crucially, the angels were also called gods in this period, as were some historic figures such as Moses. Moses was called a god already in the Torah, in his role representing Jehovah in Exodus 4.16 and 7.1, and this sense is also crucial for understanding the sense in which Jesus was viewed as god. Justin Martyr in the second century used the titles “god” and “angel” for Jesus side by side, and Origen in the third century described Jesus as a “second god”, and characterised him as subordinate to God. The issue is not whether Jesus was called god, the issue is what that means. In the context of scripture it means that he is a mighty spirit creature and that he represents Jehovah as his chief agent. This is what the Bible teaches Jesus’ role is. What is also very clear is that Jesus refers to God as his God throughout scripture (John 17.3, 20.17, Revelation 3.12). It was not until later centuries that Jesus’ identity was confused with God himself and his representative role was distorted and misrepresented, culminating in the church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries, when the original meaning of Jesus as god was eclipsed.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    aqwsed12345 :

    Thank you for your exhaustive approach to this question. While the expression "God Jesus Christ" doesn't appear anywhere in scripture, the expression "Lord Jesus Christ" does.

    The relevant scriptures are 1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1. These read "... to the congregation of the Thessalonians in union with God the Father [Θεῷ Πατρὶ] and the Lord Jesus Christ [Κυρίῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ]". I note that this is grammatically identical to the expression "God Jesus Christ [Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ]" in the inscription, and so agree I confused the genitive and dative of "Jesus" which can be identical.

    However, this does leave us with this rather perplexing inscription which reflects a high christology that didn't exist until the fourth century. There are no other inscriptions with this wording, most use the scriptural expression "Lord Jesus Christ", not "God Jesus Christ". It could be that this small group believed in a form of modalism, like Monarchianism or Sabellianism, which taught that God and Jesus are not distinct. The more I think about the wording of the inscription, the more likely that seems. Of course, today they would be described as heretics but at that time Christianity was more fluid.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    In explaining why John’s gospel presents Thomas calling Jesus “my Lord and my God” in John 20.28, the scholar Adela Yarbro Collins interprets it within a context in which Roman emperors were given titles such as Lord, Son of God, God, and Saviour, and the combined title “Lord and God” in particular. By applying all those titles to Jesus, the author of the gospel of John was asserting that Jesus is equal and surpasses any of the claims that could be made for Caesar. Couldn’t this inscription be saying something similar? The gospel of John, in common with the rest of the NT, also clearly shows that Jesus is distinguished from God and is subordinate to him - John 14.28, 17.3, 20.17, and many other passages. Being greater than Caesar clearly does not necessitate being the one true God.

    Whatever the phrase does mean, its meaning needs to be found in its own setting, not in future understanding about the Trinity that hadn’t even been developed yet. Say we found an early modern text that used the phrase “moon landing”. It might be a perplexing phrase, but whatever its real meaning is, it needs to be sought and found in the early modern context, not 1969.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Earnest

    You point out that the New Testament often uses "Lord Jesus Christ" (Κυρίῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ) rather than "God Jesus Christ" (Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ). However, this distinction does not negate the high Christology evident in the Megiddo inscription. While the exact phrase "God Jesus Christ" is not present in the New Testament, multiple passages affirm Jesus' deity: John 1:1, John 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13. These instances show that the title "God" for Jesus was recognized in early Christian worship and theology. In the New Testament, "Lord" (Κύριος) is often used interchangeably with "God" in reference to Jesus. For example, Philippians 2:11 proclaims Jesus as "Lord" in the context of worship, a role reserved for God in Jewish monotheism (Isaiah 45:23). The absence of the specific phrase "God Jesus Christ" in Scripture does not preclude its usage in early Christian inscriptions, especially considering the context of liturgical offerings and theological affirmation.

    You acknowledge the grammatical similarity between "God Jesus Christ" (Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ) and "Lord Jesus Christ" (Κυρίῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ). This similarity strengthens the argument that the Megiddo inscription reflects a natural extension of early Christian liturgical language. The use of appositional phrases like "Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ" indicates that "God" and "Jesus Christ" are being identified as one entity, not as distinct. This is consistent with early Christian worship practices, where Christ was addressed directly in prayer and offerings as God. If the inscription intended to separate "God" and "Jesus Christ," we would expect additional grammatical markers (e.g., the conjunction καί) or a genitive construction (e.g., "God of Jesus").

    You argue that a "high Christology" did not exist until the fourth century. However, the evidence from early Christian writings and archaeology contradicts this assertion, Ignatius of Antioch repeatedly calls Jesus "our God", the Didache (ca. 50-100 AD) reflects early liturgical practices that treat Jesus as divine, the Epistle of Barnabas (ca. 130 AD) refers to Jesus as pre-existent and divine. The Megiddo mosaic (ca. 230 AD) predates the Council of Nicaea (325 AD), providing material evidence of early Christian worship. The use of nomina sacra (sacred abbreviations like ΘΩ and ΙΥ ΧΥ) was a widespread practice in the second and third centuries, reflecting reverence for Jesus as divine. The claim that early Christianity lacked a unified Christology until the fourth century oversimplifies the historical development of doctrine. While theological terminology evolved, the worship of Jesus as God was an integral part of Christian belief from its inception.

    You suggest that the inscription may reflect a modalist (e.g., Sabellian) theology. The phrase "Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ" does not imply modalism. It affirms Jesus' divinity without conflating the persons of the Trinity. The absence of a conjunction like "and" (καί) does not necessitate modalist theology but reflects the appositional style of early Christian liturgical language. The Megiddo inscription is situated in a broader context of early Christian worship. Modalism, while present in some early Christian sects, was not representative of mainstream theology. The use of nomina sacra and the Eucharistic reference in the inscription align with orthodox Christian practices. Modalist inscriptions or texts typically emphasize the unity of God to the exclusion of Trinitarian distinctions. The Megiddo mosaic, by contrast, uses language consistent with early Trinitarian worship.

    You argue that early Christianity was "more fluid" and suggest that the group associated with the Megiddo mosaic may have held unorthodox beliefs. While early Christianity experienced theological debates, key doctrines—such as the divinity of Christ—were widely affirmed. The inscription aligns with these core beliefs, as demonstrated by second-century writings and liturgical texts. The offering of a table (likely an altar) "to God Jesus Christ" reflects mainstream Christian liturgical practice, not an isolated or heretical theology.


    @slimboyfat

    Isaiah 9:6 refers to the Messiah as “Mighty God” (El Gibbor). This title is significant because El Gibbor is also used in Isaiah 10:21 to describe Yahweh. The parallel usage indicates that the Messiah shares in Yahweh's divine identity. To argue that this term implies a lesser deity ignores its usage in describing the one true God. The context of Isaiah 9:6 connects the Messiah with divine titles like "Everlasting Father," which reinforces His deity. This verse is not describing a subordinate or created being but someone who is fully God.

    Philippians 2:6-11 affirms that Jesus, though existing "in the form of God" (ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ), did not grasp at equality with God but humbled Himself. The phrase "in the form of God" signifies Jesus' true divine nature, not a representational role. Colossians 1:15-20 describes Jesus as "the image of the invisible God" and the one in whom "all the fullness of deity dwells bodily" (Col. 2:9). The term "fullness of deity" (πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος) signifies the totality of God's nature, not a partial or subordinate aspect.

    Worship (προσκυνέω) is consistently directed toward Jesus in the New Testament (e.g., Matthew 28:17, Revelation 5:13-14). This worship would be blasphemous if Jesus were a created being or merely a representative. Revelation 5:13 shows all creation worshiping "the Lamb" alongside "the One who sits on the throne," placing Jesus as an object of worship equal to God.

    John 1:1 explicitly states that "the Word was God." The Greek construction (kai theos ēn ho logos) identifies the Word (Jesus) as fully divine while distinguishing Him from the Father. This is not the language of a "mighty spirit creature" or subordinate being but of someone who shares in the very essence of God. Attempts to translate this as "a god" are linguistically flawed and inconsistent with the monotheistic framework of John's Gospel.

    Thomas's declaration, “My Lord and my God” (ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou), directly addresses Jesus as God. The Greek grammar makes it clear that Thomas is speaking to Jesus, not merely about Him. Jesus does not correct Thomas, which would have been imperative if this was a misunderstanding, especially in a monotheistic Jewish context. Instead, Jesus affirms Thomas’s belief by saying, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

    Thomas's exclamation is a direct address to Jesus. The Greek text is clear: the pronouns "my" (μου) explicitly connect "Lord" and "God" to Jesus himself. There is no indication in the text that Thomas is addressing someone other than Jesus. If the Gospel writer intended Thomas's words to refer to God the Father, it would contradict the entire dramatic buildup to this climactic confession of faith, in which Jesus appears to Thomas, addresses his doubts, and invites him to believe. The use of the vocative case (direct address) reinforces that Thomas is speaking directly to Jesus. The context of the passage does not support the idea that Thomas is addressing God the Father while simultaneously acknowledging Jesus.

    While it is true that Roman emperors claimed titles such as "Lord" (Kyrios) and "God" (Theos), the Gospel of John does far more than assert that Jesus is greater than Caesar. John presents Jesus not only as superior to human rulers but as sharing in the divine identity of the one true God. The parallel to Roman imperial titles may highlight the Gospel's polemic against the emperor cult, but it does not exhaust the meaning of Jesus being called "my Lord and my God." The Gospel of John repeatedly presents Jesus as uniquely divine, not merely in opposition to Caesar, but in unity with the Father (e.g., John 1:1–3, 1:14, 5:18, 10:30). The Gospel begins by identifying Jesus as the Word (Logos), who "was with God" and "was God" (John 1:1). This sets the framework for understanding Thomas's confession. Thomas recognizes what has been revealed throughout the Gospel: Jesus is not a mere intermediary or subordinate figure but is truly God.

    You cited passages like John 14:28 ("The Father is greater than I") and John 17:3 ("that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent") to argue that Jesus is distinguished from and subordinate to God. Jesus's statement that "the Father is greater than I" refers to his incarnate state. During his earthly ministry, Jesus voluntarily assumed a subordinate role (Philippians 2:6–8). This does not diminish his divine nature but reflects his mission as the incarnate Word who came to serve and redeem humanity. In John 17:3 Jesus distinguishes himself from the Father, consistent with Trinitarian theology, which affirms that the Father and the Son are distinct persons within the Godhead. However, this distinction does not negate their shared divine essence. The phrase "only true God" emphasizes the unique deity of the God of Israel, in contrast to false gods. Jesus, as the Word made flesh, participates fully in this divine identity.

    The claim that Thomas's confession must be understood without reference to the later doctrine of the Trinity misunderstands how doctrine develops. The Trinity is not an innovation but a formal articulation of truths already present in the New Testament. The New Testament repeatedly identifies Jesus with divine attributes, titles, and prerogatives. These include his preexistence (John 1:1, Colossians 1:15–17), his authority to forgive sins (Mark 2:5–7), and his receiving of worship (Matthew 28:17, John 9:38). The doctrine of the Trinity was developed to synthesize and clarify the biblical witness to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It does not impose a foreign concept onto Scripture but articulates what is already present in texts like John 20:28.

    The analogy comparing the phrase "moon landing" in an early modern text to the theological interpretation of John 20:28 oversimplifies the issue. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a retroactive imposition but a systematic theological explanation of what Scripture reveals. The context of John 20:28 already supports Thomas's confession as a declaration of Jesus's divinity. This is consistent with John's overarching purpose: "that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31). Christian theology recognizes that the fullness of God's nature was progressively revealed. The Trinity is a conclusion drawn from the entirety of Scripture, not an anachronistic addition.

    Hebrews 1:8 quotes Psalm 45:6, applying it directly to the Son: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." The writer of Hebrews uses this verse to establish the Son’s divine kingship and eternal nature. This is not the language of a subordinate representative but of a co-eternal and co-equal divine being.

    The argument that Moses and angels are also called "gods" (e.g., Exodus 7:1; Psalm 82:6) fails to consider the context and qualitative difference in how Jesus is described. Moses is called "a god" to Pharaoh in a metaphorical sense, representing God's authority temporarily. Psalm 82 refers to corrupt human judges who are ironically called "gods" but are condemned to die like men. In contrast, Jesus is not just called God; He is worshiped (Matthew 28:17; Revelation 5:12-14), He forgives sins (Mark 2:5-7), and He is identified as Creator (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). The examples of Moses being called "god" in Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 are not parallel to the way Jesus is called "God" in the New Testament. Moses is never worshiped, nor is he described as possessing divine attributes or participating in the creation of the world.

    It is true that Jesus refers to the Father as “my God” (John 20:17, Revelation 3:12). This reflects His incarnational role and His relationship with the Father during His earthly ministry, not an ontological subordination. Philippians 2:6-11 explains this: Jesus, being in the form of God, voluntarily "emptied himself" and took on human nature. His reference to the Father as "my God" reflects His humanity and role as the mediator (1 Timothy 2:5) while not negating His divine nature.

    The claim that Jesus’ divinity was a later invention ignores the evidence from early Christian writings and councils, which sought to clarify, not invent, the Church’s understanding of Scripture. Early Church Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch explicitly referred to Jesus as God: “For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary…”. The councils of the fourth and fifth centuries affirmed this understanding in response to heretical challenges like Arianism, which denied Christ’s full deity

    Justin Martyr and Origen used language that reflects their attempts to explain the relationship between the Father and the Son in the framework of Greek philosophy. However, their writings, especially when read in context, affirm the Son’s full divinity. Origen’s term "second god" is a reflection of his subordinationist tendencies, but even he never argued that Jesus was a mere creature. Instead, he affirmed the eternal pre-existence of the Son.

    Justin Martyr's use of "god" (θεός) for Jesus alongside "angel" (ἄγγελος) does not imply ontological subordination. Rather, Justin explains that Jesus is "another God" in the sense of being distinct from the Father, yet He participates fully in divine nature. This reflects the early Christian distinction between the Father and the Son within the unity of the Godhead, not a denial of Jesus' full divinity. Origen's term "second God" (δεύτερος θεός) is often misunderstood. While Origen acknowledges the Son's distinction from the Father, he explicitly states that the Son is of the same divine essence as the Father and eternally generated from Him. Origen does not teach that Jesus is a mere creature but affirms His participation in the eternal Godhead.

    The description of Jesus as God’s "chief agent" misrepresents the biblical testimony. Jesus is not merely an agent or a representative; He is the eternal Word through whom all things were created (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). He shares in the divine nature (Colossians 2:9) and is one with the Father (John 10:30). The Bible consistently attributes divine prerogatives to Jesus that are never given to created beings.

  • Duran
    Duran

    @SB

    What is keeping you from answering this:

    Do you have a body, soul (mind, emotion, will), and spirit?

    And any comment about this:

    [20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me.]

    The mosaic’s symbolism
    The mosaic also features fish imagery, an important symbol in early Christianity. The Greek word for fish, ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthys), forms an acronym for “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.”
    ICTUS :
    Fish in Christianity – It is symbol of Jesus. It was used as a secret cipher by early Christians. ICTUS is formed from initials of words in Greek sentence "Iesous Christos Theou Uios Soter". It means "Jesus Christ God's Chosen Son".#archaeohistories pic.twitter.com/l17mJWphOQ
    — Archaeo – Histories (@archeohistories) January 6, 2022

    I = Iesous = Jesus

    CH = Christos = Christ

    TH = Theou = God’s

    Y = Yios = Son

    S = Soter = Savior

    [ 17 Also, in your own Law it is written: ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18 I am one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”]

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    aqwsed12345 : The use of appositional phrases like "Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ" indicates that "God" and "Jesus Christ" are being identified as one entity, not as distinct.

    aqwsed12345 : Modalist inscriptions or texts typically emphasize the unity of God to the exclusion of Trinitarian distinctions.

    Exactly.

    aqwsed12345 : While early Christianity experienced theological debates, key doctrines—such as the divinity of Christ—were widely affirmed.

    This is simply nonsense. The nature of Christ and his relationship with God was a matter of contention which split early Christianity into diverse sects, each claiming their understanding was correct. The Wikipedia article on Sabellianism explains :

    Monarchianism opposed the Logos-theology. As from the late second century, non-Jewish Christianity was dominated by Logos-theology which taught a two-stage existence for the Logos: He always existed inside God but became a separate Being - a distinct Reality - when God decided to create. Monarchians claimed "that the theology of the Apologists involves a division in the being and unity of God that is unacceptable" and that Logos-theology teaches two creators and two Gods (bi-theism), "inconsistent with monotheism".

    In Monarchianism, "the Father and Son were different expressions of the same being, without any personal distinctions between them.

    As the inscription we are talking about was in the middle of Israel, not far from Megiddo, they would have more likely been drawn to a monotheistic understanding such as Monarchianism, than the non-Jewish Logos-theology of the Apologists which developed into the trinity in the fourth century,

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    What is keeping you from answering this: Do you have a body, soul (mind, emotion, will), and spirit?

    @Duran: Why would you ask me this since I am the one who posted the scriptures that claims this is how we are constructed?

    This is simply nonsense. The nature of Christ and his relationship with God was a

    matter of contention which split early Christianity into diverse sects

    There have always been heretics, malcontents, and cult followers trying to infiltrate Christians since the beginning. They do not, nor have ever represented Christians. The early church elders wrote thousands of pages of information to each other to combat their influence. I own a complete set of their writings - 12 hard-bound volumes.

    Why not take the time to read them? Virtually the entire NT bible can be reconstructed from just their writings alone. From it, you can learn how Christians used certain verses that heretics in our day claim are false or misused.

    One of the things you can learn from their writings is that from the beginning believers received Jesus as God. There is simply no other conclusion to come to after reading their letters to one another.

    If we were alive in the first century and we witnessed a man claim he would resurrect himself from the dead, and then after he did that, publically proclaim that he posessed "all power in heaven and earth".... it would be very hard to dismiss.

    How can a person dismiss the claims of a person who resurrected himself from the dead... while he was dead?

    This is the key feature that "set the woods on fire" with Christianity. It swept across the Roman empire like a Tsunami. It was by far the greatest feat ever witnessed on this planet, and remains so to this very day.

    Only the Creator would be able to do this. This is the context that must be considered when examining statements about Jesus' divinity. Jesus is either God, or a liar. But, he cannot be both. Each person must decide which side they are on.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    Sea Breeze : There have always been heretics, malcontents, and cult followers trying to infiltrate Christians since the beginning. They do not, nor have ever represented Christians. The early church elders wrote thousands of pages of information to each other to combat their influence. I own a complete set of their writings - 12 hard-bound volumes.

    That the "early church elders" wrote thousands of pages to combat the influence of "heretics", shows clearly the existence of rival groups in virtually every region of Christendom of which they had knowledge. Do you think that these many groups considered themselves orthodox (i.e. representing the teachings of Christ and the apostles) or heretical? Of course, each one considered themselves orthodox and their detractors heretical. At the time of the second and third centuries there was no dominant group. Those believing in the non-Jewish Logos theology were dominant in Rome, but other groups were dominant in Edessa, Egypt, Antioch, Asia Minor and Macedonia. Eventually, the non-Jewish Logos theology acquired domination which is why you have access to their writings rather than the writings of Marcion, Valentinus and scores of others who all believed themselves to be the "orthodox" faith.

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