Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Blotty

    The claim that Trevor R. Allin and others like him are "massive liars" undermines the spirit of constructive dialogue. Instead of addressing the substance of their arguments, such personal attacks fail to contribute meaningfully to the debate. If Allin’s claims are flawed, they should be addressed with evidence and reasoned arguments, not ad hominem attacks.

    Regarding the citation of Wikipedia, while it is true that Wikipedia is not a primary academic source, referencing it in a broader discussion is not inherently invalid, especially if the content cited is accurate and supported by other reliable sources. The dismissal of Allin’s arguments purely because of a Wikipedia reference is an overreach and does not negate his broader critiques. The focus should be on the substance of the claims, not the citation medium.

    Your assertion that "a god" in John 1:1c cannot be faulted linguistically is partially correct; it is a grammatically possible rendering. However, the key issue is not mere grammatical possibility but theological and contextual accuracy. John’s Gospel, steeped in Jewish monotheism, does not support the interpretation of the Logos as a lesser god. The qualitative understanding of theos in John 1:1c—affirming the Word’s divine nature—better aligns with both the grammar and the theological context of the text. Simply because “a god” is linguistically possible does not mean it is the most accurate or contextually appropriate translation.

    While it is true that certain early Church Fathers, such as Justin Martyr, used terms like "theos kai kurios eteros" to describe the Logos, their intent must be understood within the context of their writings and their adherence to monotheism. Origen, for example, is not introducing a second deity but rather expressing the distinction of persons within the unity of the divine essence. This relational distinction is foundational to Trinitarian theology, which affirms one God in three persons.

    The term allos theos is not equivalent to the claim that the Logos is "a god" in a polytheistic/henotheistic or subordinate sense. Origen himself clarifies this point in Contra Celsum (Book 2, Chapter 70), where he insists that the Logos shares fully in the divine nature and does not represent a separate or lesser deity. His use of such terms reflects the challenge of articulating the relational dynamics within the Godhead before the formalized terminology of the Nicene Creed. To accuse Origen or other Fathers of literal polytheism is to ignore their explicit commitment to monotheism.

    Similarly, Justin Martyr uses phrases like "theos kai kurios eteros" in a way that underscores relational distinction without compromising divine unity. Justin’s aim is apologetic: he seeks to demonstrate to a Jewish audience that the pre-incarnate Logos, active in creation and Old Testament theophanies, is distinct in person yet shares in the divine essence. Justin explicitly denies any division or multiplication of the divine essence, as seen in Dialogue with Trypho (Chapter 56), where he rejects the idea of abscission, affirming instead the eternal generation of the Son.

    The attempt to equate theos in John 1:1 with "a god" relies on a fundamental misunderstanding of Greek grammar and Johannine theology. The anarthrous theos in John 1:1c ("the Word was God") emphasizes the qualitative nature of the Logos, not its numerical distinction from the Father. The Logos possesses the same divine essence as the Father, consistent with John’s monotheistic framework. Translating theos as "a god" introduces a polytheistic nuance foreign to the text and undermines the theological coherence of John’s prologue. Moreover, the examples cited—such as Satan being called "a god" (2 Corinthians 4:4) or human judges being referred to as "gods" (Psalm 82:6)—do not support the argument for rendering theos as "a god" in John 1:1. These instances employ metaphorical language to denote authority or dominion, not ontological divinity. The context in John 1:1, however, is explicitly ontological, as the Logos is identified as the eternal Creator (John 1:3), distinct in person yet fully divine.

    Early Church Fathers, while operating within the constraints of pre-Nicene terminology, consistently affirm the full divinity of the Logos. Justin Martyr, for instance, asserts that the Logos was eternally with God and distinct in person, as seen in Dialogue with Trypho (Chapter 61). Tertullian similarly speaks of the Logos as proceeding from the Father while remaining fully divine. These writings reflect the embryonic development of Trinitarian theology, not a denial of it. It is also erroneous to claim that Origen or Hippolytus took such descriptions literally in a way that implies polytheism. Their writings must be read in the context of their unwavering commitment to monotheism and their efforts to articulate the mystery of the Trinity in the face of heretical interpretations. For example, Origen explicitly states in Contra Celsum (Book 8, Chapter 12) that the Logos is worshiped along with the Father, reflecting his belief in the Logos’s full divinity.

    Theological development over time does not equate to theological innovation. The Nicene articulation of the Trinity clarified and formalized what was already implicit in Scripture and early Christian thought. Subordinationist language in early writings often reflects the relational order within the Godhead, not an ontological hierarchy. This is evident in Justin’s and Origen’s writings, which affirm the unity of essence while distinguishing the persons. Early Christian writers often used such terms to emphasize the distinct personhood of the Son relative to the Father without implying that He was a lesser or separate deity. This language must be understood within the framework of early Trinitarian theology, which maintained the unity of essence (homoousios) between the Father and the Son. The Church Fathers did not endorse a polytheistic interpretation but affirmed the Son’s full divinity within the monotheistic understanding of God.

    Your point that Satan is called “a god” (e.g., 2 Corinthians 4:4) and human judges are referred to as “gods” (Psalm 82:6) does not support the NWT’s rendering of John 1:1c as “a god.” In both cases, the terms are used metaphorically or analogically, not ontologically. The judges in Psalm 82 are called “gods” because of their role as representatives of divine authority, not because they possess divinity. Similarly, Satan is called “the god of this age” to highlight his influence over the fallen world, not because he shares in God’s nature. The use of theos in these contexts does not equate to the qualitative use of theos in John 1:1c, where the Logos is identified with the very essence of deity.

    Origen’s writings must also be understood in their historical and theological context. While Origen recognized a distinction between the Father and the Son, he affirmed the Son’s divinity and pre-existence. His theology is complex and was later deemed speculative in some areas, but he never taught that the Logos was a created or lesser god in the sense implied by the NWT. Instead, Origen’s writings contributed to the development of orthodox Trinitarian theology.

    Isaiah 44:24 emphatically declares that Yahweh alone is the Creator: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself." The Hebrew terms "alone" (levadí) and "by myself" (mē’ittí) underscore the absolute exclusivity of God's creative work, leaving no room for any secondary agents—whether false gods, angels, or any other beings. This passage asserts the divine uniqueness and monotheism foundational to the Old Testament, directly contradicting the idea that creation involved a created intermediary like the JW "Michael-Jesus."

    John 1:3 explicitly states, "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made." The Greek verb egeneto (came into being) highlights Jesus' active participation in bringing all creation into existence. The preposition dia (through) does not indicate that Jesus was a mere tool or intermediary, as in the case of a subordinate agent, but rather emphasizes the unity and distinct relational roles within the Trinity. Jesus, as the Logos, was the direct agent of creation, fully sharing in the divine essence. Similarly, Colossians 1:16-17 affirms: "For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible... all things were created through Him and for Him." The phrase "for Him" (eis auton) emphasizes Christ's ultimate supremacy and purpose in creation—attributes that can belong only to God. Paul’s language here reflects Christ’s divine identity, not that of a created being or subordinate agent. Hebrews 1:10 applies Psalm 102:25-27, which speaks of Yahweh as Creator, directly to Jesus: "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands." This identification of Jesus as Yahweh, the Creator, is clear and unequivocal. If Jesus were merely a creature or an instrument, this attribution would conflict with the exclusive role of Yahweh as Creator in Isaiah 44:24.

    Your interpretation of Tertullian misrepresents his theology. Tertullian affirmed the Son's full divinity and role in creation, stating in Against Praxeas: "He [the Father] stretched out the heavens alone, but alone with His Son, even as He is one with His Son." This shows Tertullian’s understanding that the Father and the Son, while distinct persons, share the same divine essence and work inseparably in creation. Tertullian explicitly denied that the Son was a subordinate or separate being. Instead, he described the Son as "undivided and inseparable from the Father" and emphasized their unity in essence and purpose. His analogy of the Father and Son as the sun and its ray illustrates this: just as the ray emanates from the sun without division, so the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, fully God and co-equal in nature. Your claim that Tertullian supported the idea of "alone" excluding only false gods but allowing for the involvement of creatures in creation is inaccurate. Tertullian clearly affirmed that the Son's participation in creation stems from His unity with the Father in divine essence, not as a created intermediary. His writings consistently refute any subordinationist interpretation.

    Isaiah 44:24 does not merely exclude false gods but categorically denies the involvement of any being, created or uncreated, other than Yahweh in creation. The Hebrew terms "alone" and "by myself" are absolute, precluding even the possibility of an intermediary. If Jesus were a created being, His involvement in creation would contradict this passage. However, the New Testament's consistent portrayal of Jesus as Creator (John 1:3, Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:10) aligns perfectly with the understanding that Jesus is Yahweh, fully divine.

    Your suggestion that a lack of positive scholarly consensus for the NWT is due to a "Trinitarian-dominated world" is speculative and dismissive of legitimate critiques. Many scholars, both Trinitarian and otherwise, have raised concerns about the NWT’s theological bias, particularly in its handling of key Christological texts. Dismissing these critiques as mere bias ignores the substance of their arguments and the weight of evidence against the NWT’s interpretive choices.

    BeDuhn’s defense of the NWT focuses on its linguistic fidelity, but he also acknowledges its theological implications. While he argues for the grammatical possibility of “a god” in John 1:1c, he prefers “divine” as a more accurate rendering. This preference underscores the qualitative nature of theos in this context, which aligns with the broader theological intent of John’s Gospel. The NWT’s choice of “a god” introduces ambiguity and theological bias that is not present in the original text or the broader Johannine context.

    Your critique of traditional Trinitarian scholarship as inherently biased fails to account for the rigorous academic standards applied in such studies. While all translations and interpretations reflect some level of theological presupposition, the weight of historical, linguistic, and contextual evidence overwhelmingly supports the traditional understanding of John 1:1c as affirming the Logos’s full divinity.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    "Consensus"

    AQ should read this study (I will ask him questions later to see if he actaully does read it - because I know he never read Dixons study when he claimed he did): https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/opth-2020-0158/html?lang=en&srsltid=AfmBOooA1zuCCbwwxGECXzL2yPSMLbpWE5D5KwkUJC9--IuM_ySHGRmS

    Aq if you said anything in responce to me trying to seperate those called "gods" from Christ - you are BSing everyone here.

    You have all these citations in this study to deal with and others I can/ will cite..

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    "not ad hominem attacks." - you mean not like yours in other places online? under insulting usernames..

    " while it is true that Wikipedia is not a primary academic source, referencing it in a broader discussion is not inherently invalid"

    - you cite the source from Wikipedia - NO respected academic article cites a wikipedia page..

    cite the exception.

    I have read many academic articles in my time, NONE have ever cited Wikipedia.

    Even Stafford who cites 2 sources from Wikipedia DOES NOT cite the wikipedia article. According to academics Iv spoken to you are WRONG!

    What are we to do with Tetullians statment about Idol makers

    just before that statement if it is not just directed at false gods?

    Allins claims have been addressed with evidence... not hard to find.

    (https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6310893470089216/how-credible-nwt-critiques-look-allins-evaluation-jn-8-58)

    The man is totally dishonest in other areas as well - not hard to find with a quick bit of research..

    ". Many scholars, both Trinitarian and otherwise, have raised concerns about the NWT’s theological bias" - Citation of the "otherwise"?

    " even as He is one with His Son." - you omit to mention what gender the "One" is here, neuter or masculine, makes a BIG difference

    "leaving no room for any secondary agents—whether false gods, angels, or any other beings. " - Opinion, not fact - moving on.

    There are other examples in the OT where God explicitly declares he did something "alone"

    "Tertullian explicitly denied that the Son was a subordinate or separate being. " -

    where? and he explicitly stated that this statement only includes false gods (Which would include rival gods)...

    "Jesus, as the Logos, was the direct agent of creation, fully sharing in the divine essence."

    - you know what "agent" means right? - YHWH is not the agent of creation... he was/ is the creator.

    see here: https://www.google.com/search?q=agent+meaning&oq=agent+meaning&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDE1MTJqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    (I genuinely think you don't know what "agent" means - an "agent" is generally subordinate in some sense)

    It doesn't mean "creator" it means something other than the original designer

    - this wasnt strictly out of the realms of interpretation as there are other sources that state similar.

    "For example, Origen explicitly states in Contra Celsum (Book 8, Chapter 12) that the Logos is worshiped along with the Father, reflecting his belief in the Logos’s full divinity."

    - proper citation? yes what did Origen say tho? I don't want an opinion from you - Mr quote mining accuser who then quote mines himself - full citation please.

    "However, the New Testament's consistent portrayal of Jesus as Creator (John 1:3, Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:10) "

    - Where is Jesus explicitly called "creator"?

    Where is the Father explicitly called "creator"?

    One is possible to answer, the other one is not.

    "Your critique of traditional Trinitarian scholarship as inherently biased fails to account for the rigorous academic standards applied in such studies. "

    - by only trinitarians, cite the exception if you can.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Blotty

    The Contini article discusses Jerome's exegetical treatment of Psalm 82:6, where humans are called "gods" (theoi in Greek, elohim in Hebrew). Thomistic theology approaches this passage with the understanding that while human beings are created in the imago Dei (image of God), they are fundamentally distinct from God in substance (ousia). Jerome rightly emphasizes that human beings are called "gods" not because they share the divine essence (ousia), but because they participate in God through grace (gratia). This aligns with the Thomistic principle that creatures share in God's perfections by participation, not by essence. As Thomas Aquinas writes, “The divine essence is the source of all being and goodness, and creatures reflect God’s goodness, yet remain distinct from Him in their essence” (Summa Theologiae I, q. 4, a. 3). Origen's tendency to blur the lines between God and creation, attributing to creatures a "certain kinship" with God, risks misunderstanding divine participation as implying consubstantiality. Jerome corrects this by underscoring the radical distinction between the Creator and the creature. This is critical in refuting Arianism, which denied the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father by relegating Christ to the level of a creature. Jerome's clarity safeguards the Nicene faith. Psalm 82 rebukes unjust judges (human rulers) who were metaphorically called "gods" due to their role as representatives of divine authority. Their mortality ("you will die like men") underscores their finite and contingent nature. This passage, as used by Christ in John 10:34, serves to highlight the distinction between divine appointment and intrinsic divinity. Christ surpasses this analogy by claiming unique Sonship, rooted in His consubstantiality with the Father (John 10:30).

    When Jesus cites Psalm 82:6, He draws attention to the fact that even human judges were called "gods" because the "word of God came to them." His point is not to deny His divinity but to argue a fortiori—if these lesser beings could be called "gods," how much more appropriate is it for Him, sanctified and sent by the Father, to claim the title "Son of God"? Jesus does not use Psalm 82 to suggest equality with human judges. Instead, His works ("the Father is in me, and I am in the Father," John 10:38) confirm His unique relationship with the Father. This unity is ontological, not merely functional or moral. The Jews understood this as a claim to divinity, which is why they accused Him of blasphemy. JWs often argue that Jesus claimed to be "a god" rather than God, based on their translation of John 10:33-36. This interpretation fails contextually and grammatically. In John 10:30, Jesus declares, "I and the Father are one" (hen), signifying unity of essence. The Jews' reaction confirms they understood His claim as identifying Himself with YHWH. The absence of the Greek definite article with theos in certain contexts does not imply indefiniteness. Rather, it aligns with the qualitative aspect of divinity (e.g., John 1:1).

    The Contini article posits that Jerome distanced himself from Origen’s universalizing anthropology while borrowing his exegetical methods. The distinction Jerome makes between Christ's divinity by nature and humans' participation in divinity by grace is consistent with Catholic orthodoxy. Humans are called to deification (theosis) through union with God, but this does not erase the Creator-creature distinction. Jerome’s insistence on the unique consubstantiality of Christ with the Father directly counters Arian subordinationism, which denied the full divinity of the Son. Origen’s ambiguity on the relationship between the Son and the Father provided fodder for Arians, which Jerome corrects by affirming the Nicene Creed. JWs misinterpret John 10:34 as diminishing Christ’s divinity. In contrast, Jerome’s anti-Arian exegesis and the Catholic understanding affirm that Christ’s claim to be "Son of God" implies His equality with the Father, grounded in His divine nature.

    From a Thomistic viewpoint, human dignity arises from being made in the imago Dei and being called to union with God through grace. However, God is pure act (actus purus), infinite, and unchangeable. Humans are finite, contingent, and capable of change. No participation in God’s perfections renders humans consubstantial with Him. Participation in the divine life occurs through Christ, who as the God-Man bridges the infinite gap between Creator and creature. As Aquinas notes, Christ's mediation is unique because He alone possesses the divine essence by nature (ST III, q. 26, a. 1).

    The claim that my argument relies on "BSing everyone" is an unsubstantiated ad hominem attack that does not engage with the substance of my theological claims. As for accusations of using insulting usernames or other online conduct, such claims are irrelevant to the present discussion and do not invalidate the content of my arguments. Theological discourse should focus on evidence and reasoning rather than personal attacks or distractions.

    While Psalm 82 and 2 Corinthians 4:4 use "gods" to refer metaphorically to human judges or Satan's authority, the usage of "theos" in John 1:1 is qualitatively different. The prologue of John, steeped in Jewish monotheism, identifies the Logos as eternal, pre-existent, and divine, not as a subordinate or metaphorical "god." The anarthrous construction in Greek ("theos ēn ho logos") emphasizes the qualitative essence of the Logos as fully divine, a theological affirmation that aligns with the Gospel's broader portrayal of Christ as Creator and Sustainer of all things (John 1:3).

    While Wikipedia is not a primary academic source, it can provide useful summaries when its claims are verified by reliable sources. The dismissal of Wikipedia’s utility entirely is unnecessary if the citations are accurate and well-supported by scholarly references. Furthermore, several academic articles and books use Wikipedia for definitions, overviews, or introductory references, particularly in interdisciplinary fields. For example, scholars in digital humanities or pedagogy frequently cite Wikipedia to discuss its role in modern education. Referencing it as a starting point for broader discussion or context is not inherently illegitimate. Scholarly works, while not citing Wikipedia directly, often engage with concepts or summaries that may appear in such platforms. My point was that dismissing an argument solely because it references Wikipedia, without engaging the argument's substance, is an ad hominem tactic rather than substantive critique. This broader perspective negates the blanket dismissal presented in the critique.

    Regarding Tertullian’s discussion of idol makers, the critic misrepresents the context of his writings. Tertullian’s use of the term “idol makers” in De Spectaculis and Apologeticus relates specifically to pagan practices and false gods, not the divine nature of Christ or His participation in creation. Tertullian affirms the Son’s divinity and inseparability from the Father. Tertullian's language reflects the relational dynamic between the Father and the Son, not an ontological hierarchy. His writings predate the Nicene articulation of homoousios (same essence), but they consistently affirm the Son's divinity. Your interpretation of Tertullian is flawed. Tertullian’s writings, such as Against Praxeas, affirm the distinct personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while maintaining their unity in essence. His analogy of the sun and its rays illustrates that the Son is eternally generated from the Father, sharing the same divine essence and acting inseparably in creation. The statement "cum filio solus, sicut cum filio unum" (neuter, just like "hen" in John 10:30, the masculine "unus" would man Sabellianism) reflects Tertullian’s Trinitarian framework, not subordinationism. Additionally, his reference to idol-makers does not equate the Son with false gods but critiques polytheistic practices. Your reading misrepresents his theology and oversimplifies his nuanced arguments.

    The critique against rendering theos in John 1:1 as "God" rather than "a god" reflects a misunderstanding of Greek grammar and Johannine theology. The anarthrous theos emphasizes the qualitative nature of the Word (the Logos) as fully divine. This aligns with the monotheistic framework of John's Gospel, which never introduces polytheism or henotheism. Rendering it as "a god" imposes a theological bias foreign to the context and undermines the coherence of John 1:3, where the Logos is identified as the Creator of "all things."

    Origen explicitly states in Contra Celsum (Book 8, Chapter 12):

    “...that he may understand the meaning of the saying, 'I and My Father are one'. We worship one God, the Father and the Son, therefore, as we have explained; and our argument against the worship of other gods still continues valid.”

    Origen’s theology, though speculative in some areas, consistently affirms the full divinity of the Logos. The claim that Origen saw the Logos as a "lesser deity" is a misreading of his work. His articulation of the relational distinction between the Father and the Son predates Nicene terminology but aligns with Trinitarian theology. In Contra Celsum (Book 8, Chapter 12), Origen defends the worship of the Logos alongside the Father, affirming the Son's full divinity and unity with the Father. He explicitly rejects polytheism and subordinationist interpretations that would deny the Son’s equality with the Father. Origen's complex theological language seeks to articulate the relational dynamics within the Godhead, not to undermine Christ’s divinity.

    The critique of the Logos as merely an "agent" misunderstands the biblical and theological context of creation. The Greek term dia (through) in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2 emphasizes the Logos’s active role in creation, not as a subordinate intermediary but as the divine Word through whom all things exist. This aligns with the Old Testament declaration in Isaiah 44:24 that Yahweh alone created the heavens and the earth. The Logos’s involvement in creation demonstrates His full participation in the divine essence. On the concept of agency, your understanding is reductionist. While "agent" can imply subordination in some contexts, its theological application to Christ must be understood within the framework of divine unity. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:10 identify Christ as the active agent in creation. These passages leave no ambiguity: Jesus is affirmed as Creator, not as a mere agent but as God Himself, working in unity with the Father and the Spirit. The Father is also called Creator (e.g., Isaiah 44:24), reflecting the Trinitarian understanding that creation is the work of the one God, involving all three persons. The use of "through" (Greek: "dia") does not diminish Christ’s role but emphasizes the relational distinction within the Godhead. The unity of essence between the Father and Son means that Christ’s creative work is not independent but in perfect harmony with the Father's will. This is not analogous to a subordinate intermediary but reflects the functional distinctions within the Trinity.

    The claim that Jesus is not explicitly called "Creator" ignores the context of passages such as John 1:3 ("All things were made through Him"), Colossians 1:16-17 ("For by Him all things were created... He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together"), and Hebrews 1:10, which applies Psalm 102:25-27 to Christ. These texts identify Christ as the agent of creation in a manner that only God could fulfill. The Father’s role as Creator is often implicit, as creation is a Trinitarian act involving the Father, Son, and Spirit in unity.

    Scholars like Jason BeDuhn, while sympathetic to some aspects of the NWT, critique its rendering of texts like John 1:1c, preferring "divine" as a more accurate translation. This reflects a rejection of the polytheistic implications of "a god." BeDuhn’s acknowledgment of theological bias in the NWT undermines the claim that all critiques are Trinitarian in origin. Rigorous academic studies, including those by non-Trinitarian scholars, engage with the historical, linguistic, and theological evidence supporting the Trinity. Examples include works by Richard Bauckham (Jesus and the God of Israel), N.T. Wright (The Resurrection of the Son of God), and non-Trinitarian studies that critique but also engage the traditional view, such as Larry Hurtado’s research on early Christology. To dismiss all Trinitarian scholarship as biased is to ignore the scholarly rigor and diverse perspectives that contribute to the field.

    The claim that ego eimi (“I am”) in John 8:58 should be rendered “I have been” or “I was” rather than “I am” is linguistically weak. While eimi can sometimes be translated differently depending on context, the present tense in Greek often conveys timeless or continuous existence, particularly when used in conjunction with a temporal clause, as in prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi (“before Abraham came to be, I am”). The choice of the present tense eimi rather than the past tense ēmēn (“I was”) suggests an intentional emphasis on Jesus’ eternal existence. This timeless aspect aligns with divine self-revelation rather than mere preexistence, this statement is a direct claim to deity.

    The argument that John 8:58 does not parallel Exodus 3:14 because the Septuagint (LXX) uses ego eimi ho on (“I am the Being”) rather than ego eimi alone overlooks the theological connection between these passages. While the phrasing differs slightly, the use of ego eimi in both cases conveys the self-existence and eternal nature of God. In Exodus 3:14, God identifies Himself to Moses as “I am who I am” (ehyeh asher ehyeh in Hebrew, rendered as ego eimi ho on in Greek), establishing His identity as the eternally existing one. In John 8:58, Jesus’ use of ego eimi evokes this same divine self-identification, particularly in the context of a conversation about Abraham and divine promises. The Jews’ reaction—attempting to stone Jesus for blasphemy—confirms their understanding that He was making a divine claim.

    The assertion that ego eimi is a common phrase used by many individuals in the Bible and thus lacks theological significance is misleading. While ego eimi can indeed appear in ordinary contexts, its usage in John 8:58 stands out because it is coupled with a temporal clause referring to a time before Abraham's existence. This construction, where Jesus speaks of Himself in terms of eternal existence, is unique and unparalleled. For example, John 9:9, where the blind man says ego eimi (“I am [he]”), is a simple identification and lacks the profound theological implications of John 8:58.

    The claim that the reaction of the Jews in John 8:59 (picking up stones to stone Jesus) could be due to reasons other than His claim to divinity, such as their general hostility, ignores the context of their accusation. Throughout the Gospel of John, the Jewish leaders repeatedly accuse Jesus of blasphemy and equating Himself with God (John 5:18, 10:30-33). In John 8:58-59, their response to His declaration directly follows His claim, indicating they understood it as a claim to divine identity. This reaction highlights the gravity of Jesus’ words and supports the interpretation that He was asserting His divinity.

    The argument that John 8:58 does not explicitly identify Jesus as God but rather as a divine agent or messianic figure fails to account for the broader Johannine context. The Gospel of John repeatedly emphasizes Jesus’ divine nature. From the Prologue (John 1:1-14), which declares that “the Word was God,” to Jesus’ statements about His unity with the Father (John 10:30), John presents a consistent Christology that identifies Jesus as fully divine. The “I am” statements (ego eimi) throughout the Gospel, particularly without predicates, further reinforce this theme.

    The critique of the NWT for rendering ego eimi as “I have been” reflects the theological bias of the JWs rather than linguistic accuracy. This translation attempts to obscure the connection to Exodus 3:14 and to downplay the deity of Christ. This approach is inconsistent with standard Greek grammar and the historical understanding of the text. Reputable scholars and translations overwhelmingly render ego eimi as “I am,” preserving the theological significance of Jesus’ statement.

    The suggestion that Jesus may have spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew rather than Greek does not weaken the argument for His deity. Even if He used a Semitic phrase equivalent to ego eimi, the Evangelist John chose to convey this in Greek using the present tense ego eimi, which has specific theological resonance. The inspired text reflects the Evangelist’s intention to present Jesus as the eternal Word of God.

    The broader argument that Jesus never explicitly claimed to be God in the Gospels and was only understood as the Messiah or Son of God by His contemporaries is inconsistent with the evidence. Jesus’ identification with divine prerogatives, His forgiveness of sins (Mark 2:5-12), His authority over the Law (Matthew 5:21-48), and His acceptance of worship (John 20:28) all point to His divine identity. The charge of blasphemy leveled against Him by the Sanhedrin (Mark 14:61-64) was based on His claim to be the Son of Man who would sit at the right hand of Power—a clear reference to Daniel 7:13-14, a vision of divine authority.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Halcon: To this you can add how they feel about themselves on any given day.

    Day-to-day changes in our mood is something that humans --with rare exceptions-- all share and can compare reliably. I'd go as far as to say we have a set of standards that we can use to understand this consistently. Not so for the person who claims to remember previous lives, for example.

    Halcon: Or how about the person who is inexplicably happy over the loss of someone or something? Or the person who is sad over gaining something and can't tell you why, they just are?

    Those sound like exceptions that prove the rule. You admit that these examples are difficult to explain, and I would agree that people would feel a need to rationalize such behavior, because it is outside of an accepted norm. The person who feels god in his heart may be referring to Yahweh, Vishnu, or any number of beings. How would you determine that this feeling is Jesus, and not Brahma?

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    You continue to suggest that by allowing for feelings and fantasies to be understood as real conditions/creations of the mind.

    You've categorized feelings and fantasies as the same again.

    With modern equipment we actually can quantify and isolate feelings and project them on a screen.

    Suppose someone significant to you tells you 'I despise you so much '.

    Well, but how much is that? How absurd to think that you can pour this hate into a cup and measure the amount as you would water.

    No, you would shift into the reality of the heart and mind, countering their emotion with kindness and contrition, else they determine you to be cold and indifferent which would be dangerous to the relationship. None of this is fantasy.

    My aim was simply to point out that not all things that some here consider metaphysical are fantasy as was absolutely claimed.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    The person who feels god in his heart may be referring to Yahweh, Vishnu, or any number of beings. How would you determine that this feeling is Jesus, and not Brahma?

    There is a saying that love and hate are two sides of the same coin.

    But to answer your question, that person would very likely tell you which God they feel in their heart and why. Or maybe they couldn't. Like the complex emotions we've touched on, they just know they feel God.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    you know what "agent" means right? - YHWH is not the agent of creation... he was/ is the creator.

    He was both. You are literalizing the concept of agency into subcontractor. The writer of the Wisdom Proverbs uses the notion of agency for Wisdom. Yet originally readers understood Yahweh is Wisdom, it was not literally a separate entity creating the world. In the same way Yahweh is Wisdom, Yahweh is also Logos. This neither a Trinitarian nor WT Christology. Unfortunately, a later generation of readers tended to literalize the anthropomorphized Wisdom/Logos. Even in Jewish circles Logos took on a tangibleness that could be easily mistaken for polytheism.

    Combine the above with the distinction implied between Yahweh and the Most High in some texts. (Deut 32) and we have a recipe for a new way to conceive of Yahweh; as one of the titles of the agency of the Most High, as "God" of the Jews.

    Your above statement that Yahweh was not the 'agent of creation' ignores that that is precisely how many understood it.

    Taking it all quite literally, some gave Yahweh the title 'demiurge' (artisan) of the Most High, and divided the two as entities in a way not intended by the OT writer/redactors. The so-called Gnostics and Marcionism understood this 'Demiurge' (artisan) God to be the God of the Jews formerly known as Yahweh in some texts. Their unique (some would say heretical) idea was not this identification, but the idea that this demiurge was in some ways acting apart from the desires of the Most High. This offered an explanation for suffering of the material world.

    NT writers, while sharing the same identification of creator with the Gnostics did not imagine that creator negatively. For them this agency of God was still working for their salvation. Unlike the Gnostics, they attempted to explain suffering in legalist terms. They thereby gave the agency of God (Wisdom/Word/Logos) a new role as a propitiating sacrifice drawing from passages like Is 53. The name Yahweh had by then become just another title, one seldom used. The Messianism of the later 2nd temple period also provided a new role for the Logos. The Daniel 7 'Son of Man' was merged with the Ancient of Days in the OG LXX. This meant the Son of Man/Son of God/Logos/Wisdom and the OT Yahweh were fused as agencies of the High God. These titles were all aspects of God. This why we find many OT references to Yahweh applied to Jesus.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Halcon: But to answer your question, that person would very likely tell you which God they feel in their heart and why. Or maybe they couldn't.

    That last part speaks to the point I am making. The person who tells me that he experiences god in his heart can claim that it is one god or another, and there is no way to challenge his claim that everyone can agree upon. Indeed, his description of "god in his heart" may not match anyone else's. But I bet his description of heartbreak, or of what he felt when he touched a hot surface, would be easily and accurately understood by everyone else.

    Keep in mind that I am accepting your approach at face value, and even that only gets us as far as "maybe it could be." Gods exist in a muddy world of conjecture, in a place that we define however we wish. And that is the extent of our evidence for them. For a concept of such tremendous potential importance, that is a shockingly thin thread to depend upon.

  • Rivergang
    Rivergang

    Halcon,

    The way you describe things, it sounds like God is a state of mind?

    That is one of the most intelligent things I have ever heard!

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