Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    TTWSYF : Apologies to you both as I stand corrected!

    Thank you for your gracious apology. It takes a lot of humility to admit when a mistake has been made.

    There was a previous discussion about Jason BeDuhn at a time when most contributors were both scholarly and gracious. A poster, Ginny Tosken, wrote to Dr BeDuhn and the exchange between them as well as comments by AlanF, hillary_step and other giants from the past are well worth reading. The thread is Prof. Jason BeDuhn letter on the NWT/KIT.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Do they, really? I strongly suspect that, if I asked people even in one geographic region, I would get many different descriptions of what that means. And this assumes they belong to the same religion and acknowledge the same god.

    To this you can add how they feel about themselves on any given day. A person who considers himself a sinner one day may feel despondent in regards to God. A person who considers himself obedient will feel better about God.

    But none of it changes the fact that they will tell you that they feel God in their hearts.

    Or how about the person who is inexplicably happy over the loss of someone or something? Or the person who is sad over gaining something and can't tell you why, they just are?

    Would we tell them that they are feeling the wrong kind of happy or the wrong kind of sad, and base our argument on testable claims and reliable data?

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Interesting how you categorize thoughts and emotions the same as theoretical pure religion. This is what I was referring to when I responded to tonus, you either legitimize all metaphysical phenomena or are forced to discard it all.

    That is decidedly not what I said. I thought I was very clear that the machinery of the mind draws many objectively incorrect conclusions. Fantasy may even involve the deliberate compartmentalization of critical thinking for the purpose of entertainment or comfort. Feelings exist in the mind, and so in that sense are 'real', feelings are not however, trustworthy assessments of reality. The best means of assessing the trustworthiness of ideas is the dispassionate consideration of the arguments and evidence put forward in defense of those feelings and ideas. And again 'metaphysical' implies supernatural, it does not mean any idea or feeling that arises in the mind. You are confusing 'mental' with 'metaphysical'. As was said a couple times.... semantics. (as defined as 'meanings of words' not the sense of being trivial)

  • Rivergang
    Rivergang
    Now I feel like a burger. Just writing this produced a neuro-chemical reaction that made my mouth water. 🍔

    We are talking here about those hard-wired emotions which are related to survival.

    Electrical impulses from our sensory organs initiate the neuro-chemical reactions which produce those feelings and responses. (The sensory organs are all just what in electrical terms are called "transducers" - with a transducer being a device which converts any other form of energy into electrical energy).

    Additionally, memories (pleasant or otherwise) which are stored in the brain can likewise initiate the electrical signals which stimulate those neuro-chemical reactions. There is no black magic involved here; all these processes can be observed to occur by use of such devices as MRI scans (and the electrical signals between the neuron cells can be measured).

    Such concepts as "God" came about primarily because of the insatiable curiosity of the human species, and its early attempts to explain what was going on around it. (And in stating that, I have likely condemned myself in the eyes of many posters on this thread, but whatever!)

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @Rivergang

    Such concepts as "God" came about primarily because of the insatiable curiosity of the human species

    For Christians, is about the insatiable curiosity about a man who predicted that he would raise himself from the dead, while he was dead; and then did it.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    BeDuhn lauds the KIT for its accuracy as an interlinear translation and its utility in academic settings. He emphasizes its "slavish word-for-word correspondence," which exposes linguistic nuances and forces readers to grapple with the text's original meaning. While the KIT may be a helpful academic tool, its underlying Greek text (Westcott & Hort) is itself subject to scholarly debate, and it represents only one textual tradition. Moreover, the interlinear's literalism can sometimes obscure meaning in cases where context and idiom demand a more dynamic translation.

    BeDuhn defends the NWT as generally accurate and “hyper-literal,” emphasizing that it avoids interpretive glosses often found in mainstream translations. Hyper-literal translations, while exposing readers to the text's structure, can lead to awkward or misleading renderings. For instance, the NWT’s approach in passages like John 1:1 (“a god”) or Colossians 1:15 (adding “other”) reflects interpretive choices influenced by JW doctrine. While these may not be "grammatically impossible," they can still introduce theological bias under the guise of literalism.

    BeDuhn argues that all translations reflect some level of bias, stemming from the theological or doctrinal assumptions of their translators. While bias is indeed present in all translations, not all biases are equal. The NWT has been criticized for systematic doctrinal bias that aligns closely with JW doctrines, particularly regarding the deity of Christ and the use of “Jehovah” in the NT. By contrast, many mainstream translations aim for a broader ecumenical consensus.

    The Watchtower's history of taking scholars’ statements out of context warrants scrutiny. By omitting BeDuhn’s criticisms of the NWT and KIT, the organization risks misleading its readers, particularly given the deference many JWs afford to such endorsements.

    The NWT inserts "Jehovah" in 237 instances in the NT, despite the absence of the Tetragrammaton in all known Greek manuscripts. BeDuhn’s critique in his later writings acknowledges this as a conjectural emendation unsupported by manuscript evidence. This practice reflects theological bias, as it aligns with JW emphasis on the divine name, even at the expense of textual fidelity. It also obscures the NT authors' apparent identification of Jesus with OT references to Yahweh (e.g., Philippians 2:10–11, quoting Isaiah 45:23). BeDuhn criticizes the NWT’s substitution of "Jehovah" for Kyrios (Lord) in the NT, noting that this choice is not supported by manuscript evidence. While he acknowledges that the Watchtower’s theory about the removal of the divine name from early Christian texts might be plausible, he rightly concludes that the current state of evidence does not support this claim. The insertion of “Jehovah” into the NT by the NWT is one of its most controversial features. This choice introduces theological bias, as it aligns with Jehovah’s Witnesses’ distinctive focus on the divine name. While some OT quotations in the NT might justify restoring the Tetragrammaton, the wholesale replacement of Kyrios with “Jehovah” is not only conjectural but also inconsistent with the textual evidence.

    BeDuhn defends the grammatical possibility of “a god” as a rendering, though he concedes that “divine” might better reflect the qualitative nuance of theos in this context. BeDuhn’s argument in favor of the NWT centers on its adherence to Greek grammar, particularly in controversial passages like John 1:1. His assertion that the NWT's rendering of the third clause as "a god" or "divine" is grammatically valid aligns with the understanding of theos without the definite article in Greek. While this argument has linguistic merit, it overlooks the theological implications of rendering theos as "a god." Critics argue that this rendering introduces theological bias by diminishing the traditional understanding of Christ’s deity, a point that BeDuhn downplays as an interpretive choice rather than a distortion. The NWT’s rendering of “a god” introduces theological implications that are inconsistent with Johannine monotheism. The broader context of John’s Gospel, including verses like John 1:3 and John 20:28, supports an understanding of the Logos as fully divine rather than a subordinate deity.

    BeDuhn draws an interesting parallel between Mark 12:26–27 and John 1:1, noting that the absence of the article in theos in Mark 12:27 allows for a categorical or indefinite sense. While this observation is linguistically valid, the context of John 1:1 differs significantly. The Prologue of John is a theological statement about the Logos's identity, emphasizing the Word’s intrinsic divinity rather than placing it in a generic “god” category. John 1:1's prologue is widely understood as affirming the Word’s deity, paralleling the "Logos" with the monotheistic God of Jewish tradition. Translating theos as "a god" risks conflicting with the monotheistic framework of John's Gospel, potentially introducing a theological bias of Arianism. BeDuhn critiques the application of Colwell’s Rule by arguing it presupposes definiteness rather than proving it. While his criticism has validity, Colwell’s Rule remains a significant framework in Greek syntax, particularly when analyzing predicate nominatives like theos in John 1:1. Many scholars argue that the absence of the article does not automatically make theos indefinite but emphasizes its qualitative aspect, supporting the translation "the Word was God" as a categorical affirmation of the Logos’ divine nature. BeDuhn views John 1:1 as an initial step in the development of Christological thought, which later led to doctrines like the Trinity. While this perspective aligns with historical-critical approaches, it risks downplaying the high Christology evident throughout John’s Gospel.

    BeDuhn highlights the inconsistency in various translations’ handling of theos, noting that all translations exhibit some bias. However, he overlooks the inconsistency within the NWT itself, particularly its selective use of "Jehovah" in the NT. As BeDuhn acknowledges in his appendix critique, the insertion of "Jehovah" lacks textual support in the Greek manuscripts and is based on conjectural emendation. This practice undermines the NWT’s claim to objectivity and introduces a significant theological bias aligning with JW doctrine. BeDuhn’s dismissal of prominent scholars’ critiques of the NWT as "biased" or "theological rather than linguistic" can itself be seen as overly dismissive. While bias exists in translation, his blanket critique of traditional interpretations risks downplaying legitimate scholarly concerns about the NWT’s theological motivations. For instance, his dismissal of Metzger’s and Westcott’s criticisms as “theological” overlooks the fact that theological coherence and linguistic fidelity are often intertwined in biblical exegesis.

    While BeDuhn defends the NWT's rendering as "grammatically possible", most scholars argue it fails to reflect the qualitative nuance of theos in the text, which suggests divine nature rather than indefiniteness. The qualitative sense of theos in John 1:1 is supported by the immediate context (e.g., John 1:3, 1:18) and the larger narrative of John’s Gospel, which culminates in Thomas’s confession of Jesus as “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Rendering theos as “a god” not only creates theological ambiguity but also introduces an interpretation that aligns more closely with Jehovah’s Witness theology than with the text’s intent.

    BeDuhn’s treatment of John 20:28 (“My Lord and my God!”) as an interpretive issue rather than a clear affirmation of Christ’s deity is also problematic. While he correctly notes that the context of John’s Gospel must inform the interpretation, his reluctance to acknowledge this verse as a culmination of the Logos theology presented in John 1:1 appears to reflect his own theological hesitancy rather than an unbiased analysis.

    BeDuhn suggests that "divine" might be a preferable translation to "a god" in John 1:1c, as it captures the qualitative nature of the term. This suggestion underscores a valid point that a qualitative understanding of theos aligns with John’s theology. However, the NWT’s choice of "a god" implies henotheism to many English readers, creating a disconnect with both the text's Jewish monotheistic roots and its intended meaning.

    Examples like Colossians 1:15 (“firstborn of all creation” with “other”), Philippians 2:6 (“gave no consideration to a seizure”), and Titus 2:13 (rendering that separates “God” and “Savior”) highlight interpretive choices that align with JW doctrine. These choices go beyond grammatical fidelity, often reshaping the text to fit a pre-existing theological framework. Such renderings are at odds with mainstream scholarship and the broader consensus of early Christian interpretation.

    BeDuhn points out that mainstream biblical scholars rarely review the NWT, not because of unanimous condemnation but due to its peripheral status in academic circles. While the lack of scholarly reviews may limit informed critique, the absence of positive scholarly consensus is also telling. The NWT’s idiosyncrasies and theological biases have prevented its acceptance as a reliable translation outside JW circles.

    BeDuhn’s concern that his praise for the KIT might be misused by the Watchtower to bolster its religious claims is valid. The organization’s history of presenting scholars’ comments out of context, as seen in other cases, underscores the need for caution. While his defense of the NWT against blanket condemnation is fair, his critiques often fail to fully address the theological and doctrinal motivations behind the NWT’s most controversial renderings. The NWT’s systematic alignment with JW theology in key texts—especially concerning the deity of Christ and the insertion of “Jehovah” in the NT—raises legitimate concerns about its reliability as an unbiased translation. BeDuhn’s observations remind us of the importance of critical engagement with all translations, recognizing both their strengths and their limitations. However, the broader scholarly and theological critiques of the NWT remain valid and should not be dismissed as merely biased reactions.

  • Rivergang
    Rivergang
    For Christians, is about the insatiable curiosity about a man who predicted that he would raise himself from the dead, while he was dead; and then did it.

    Or so they say.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Feelings exist in the mind, and so in that sense are 'real', feelings are not however, trustworthy assessments of reality.

    But real nonetheless. Which is to say, not all real things can be measured and quantified. Desire suppressed, for example, is still very much real desire.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    The desire is real, the object of the desire may not be. No one is questioning IF people believe in God, they are questioning whether God is real. You continue to suggest that by allowing for feelings and fantasies to be understood as real conditions/creations of the mind, God must be similarly regarded real. I grant you that God can also be allowed to be real as a condition/creation of the mind. But is that really what you wished to suggest?

    If you simply mean as you lastly said, "...not all real things can be measured and quantified" then even this argument fails. With modern equipment we actually can quantify and isolate feelings and project them on a screen. We even know which parts of the brain are activated with anger, love and numinous thoughts of God. We have unwoven the rainbow and pulled its threads. This type of philosophical argumentation is antiquated.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    - I will answer AQ's other LONG post when I finish my far more important job later on tonight, if time permits-

    if AQWSED ever wants to be trusted on this forum ever again, maybe he should stop spreading misinformation about Beduhn.

    - What AQ might not know is Trevor R Allin is a massive liar, pointed out by Wonderment and Edgar Foster, he like alot of trinitarian bias scholars OMIT to mention elements that don't suit their agenda

    - Allin cites WIKIPEDIA as a source for things in his attack on Beduhn & the WT, if you know anything about academic articles, citing wikipedia is looked down upon and not considered a reliable source, since ANYONE can alter it.

    "However, the broader scholarly and theological critiques of the NWT remain valid and should not be dismissed as merely biased reactions." - this works in reverse aswell... Why should the NWT be dismissed at all, when strictly linguistically "a god" in john 1:1 CANNOT be faulted as inaccurate

    "Rendering theos as “a god” not only creates theological ambiguity but also introduces an interpretation that aligns more closely with Jehovah’s Witness theology than with the text’s intent." - except where Church fathers call Logos "allos theos"

    and individually Satan is called "a god" and Judges are called "a god" (if we take each judge individually)

    if this is metaphorical, why doesn't Origen or Hippolytus mention this - rather they seem to take it literally? Origen treats it as another name for angels.

    Don't tell me, they don't mean what they literally said, like Tetullian on isa 44:24 - Where if Tetullian doesnt solely mean it omits false gods, what are we to do with the information just before the statement "caused him to be alone, except "alone" from false gods" (Tettulian interprets The Father saying this, not the Trinity)

    "These choices go beyond grammatical fidelity, often reshaping the text to fit a pre-existing theological framework. Such renderings are at odds with mainstream scholarship and the broader consensus of early Christian interpretation." - Why are we making out this is what Beduhn said... when in fact Beduhn is more reasonable and scholarly than you have ever been?

    " While the lack of scholarly reviews may limit informed critique, the absence of positive scholarly consensus is also telling. " - in a trinitarian dominated world this is hardly surprising, and there are more than just Beduhn who think the NWT is good.

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