Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    "Your claim that Heb. 1:6 involves a "reapplication" misunderstands the text's theological intent. " - typical I always "misunderstand" but theologically motivated AQ Is always right - so reapplications identify someone right?
    Don't forget Jesus inherited a better name than the angels..

    wouldn't the angels already be worshipping him if he was God? This would not need to be established if the writer thought he was God (the writer didn't)

    The angels were TOLD to "worship" Christ... not idolatry when the most high God tells them to "worship" him

    "Your appeal to translations like Goodspeed’s or Young’s Bible does not invalidate my argument regarding the NWT's theological bias." - how? in what world? Trinitarians do exactly the same as the NWT... your argument is invalid.
    you are ignoring evidence here (whats new - you quote mined aswell, in this very same thread, proof is in the link I posted)

    "The reference to 1 Chron. 29:20 as a supposed parallel misunderstands the context and semantics of proskyneō. " - both are direct objects of the verb... actually one is technically indirect, but worshipping God would be worshipping his King.
    Where does it say they are in different senses? that is YOUR opinion.

    yes INTENT AQ INTENT... Why is the Lamb worthy to receive "worship" (or Homage - they are literally synonyms)?

    literally 1 verse back will answer your question, Why is God worthy to receive worship try ch. 1

    "The NWT's rendering of proskyneō as "do obeisance" here is inconsistent with its own principles, as the same word is translated as "worship" when applied to God in other passages." - shall I point out the same inconsistency in other Bibles? Lets start with catholic bibles I can cite atleast 2 verses that do exactly the same thing.

    Which bible(s) do you use? ill check if it (they) does the same thing

    "For example, John 1:1 is rendered as "a god" in the NWT, but other similar grammatical constructions (like John 1:6) are not translated with "a" in front of "God." " - this is not rightly pointed out as these constructions are not parallels, if you bother to pick p ANY greek handbook John 1:6 is a Dative and can be definite even without the article... there are NOT paralels, literally anyone with knowledge in Greek can tell you that - these CANNOT be compared.

    If you read any Greek handbook you will see that constructions are similar only when a case that plays a similar fuction is employed.. i.e not Dative and Nominative

    "This statement implies that the predominance of Trinitarianism automatically invalidates their conclusions." - actually it says that if all are trinitarian we are likely to get only trinitarian bias translations.. unless we get super honest scholars who admit it doesn't exist... most are kicked out of these places for such reasoning

    " It is possible to worship while grappling with questions or confusion. Worship arises from recognition of worthiness and reverence for God" - you CANNOT worship if you doubt it... worship by definition means having full faith in the thing you worship. No room for doubt. esp for the persons identity (maybe other things sure, we are talking identity here)

    "Mainstream Trinitarian translations undergo extensive peer review by experts in ancient languages, history, and theology to ensure consistency and fidelity." - how many of these are not trinitarian?

    "respectful dialogue is essential for meaningful engagement. Constructive criticism is welcome, but dismissing others' views without addressing the substance of their arguments undermines the opportunity for genuine discussion. Fact-checking and thoughtful analysis are integral to meaningful discourse, and this response aims to provide both." - what have you fact checked? nothing

    Where are your sources to prove you have fact checked? there are none.. I see none.

    "genuine discussion"? How can anyone discuss anything with you? its borderline impossible

    "The suggestion that I am driven by theological motivation rather than objective scholarship is ironic, given the demonstrable theological bias of the NWT." - deflection much?

    this doesn't address the substance of my claim :) so address it

    I can post my research to prove your theologically motivated if you like.. (I warn it wont be pretty, alot of research has been done since these long spammy posts have appeared around the internet)

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo
    Halcon
    The feelings of empathy, kindness and consideration are simply byproducts of a chemical reaction?

    Yes. However I would say there is more to this, like a person's culture or background that could play a part. For example, females tend to feel more guilt than men, they are more likely to choose a career that involves a caring or supporting role.

    The brains reward system is powerful. Its a constant battle for everyone to recognise the dangers of seeking short term gratification and the dopamine reward that comes with it, over long term, sustained effort.

    Resisting the bodies natural urge to eat more than we need to achieve a long term goal is harder than eating a nice juicy burger every day. Now I feel like a burger. Just writing this produced a neuro-chemical reaction that made my mouth water. 🍔

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    TTWSYF : Dr. Jason [BeDuhn] never endorses the New World translation.

    In his book, Truth in Translation, 2003, Dr. BeDuhn compares nine different translations for accuracy and bias in the NT - King James Version, (New) Revised Standard Version, New International Version, New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, Amplified Bible, Living Bible, Today's English Version, and New World Translation.

    In his conclusion he says (p.163) :

    While it is difficult to quantify this sort of analysis, it can be said that the NW emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared. Holding a close second to the NW in its accuracy, judging by the passages we have looked at, is the NAB. Both of these are translations produced by single denominations of Christianity. Despite their distinctive doctrinal commitments, the translators managed to produce works relatively more accurate and less biased than the translations produced by multi-denominational teams, as well as those produced by single individuals.

    Again, sorry, but those are the facts.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    On Rev 5:13

    Edgar Foster:

    https://fosterheologicalreflections.blogspot.com/2015/09/bowing-down-to-lamb-in-revelation-5.html

    (read bottom paragraph of this post esp)

    Why the variant if both were supposed to be worshipped? These variants are:

    - Stephanus

    - King James TR

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Jojo-Now I feel like a burger. Just writing this produced a neuro-chemical reaction that made my mouth water.

    But wait, wasn't the thought of a burger what triggered your neuro chemical reaction?

    Yet rivergang and yourself claimed that the metaphysical phenomena of thought and emotion always follows the chemical reaction.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo
    Halcon
    But wait, wasn't the thought of a burger what triggered your neuro chemical reaction?
    Yet rivergang and yourself claimed that the metaphysical phenomena of thought and emotion always follows the chemical reaction.

    I cant speak for rivergang but I'm not sure I made that claim.

    Food is a basic human need. You do not need to be thinking about food to 'feel' hungry. That feeling is a chemical reaction that comes from the brain reminding you to eat. Because I thought about a burger and how great they taste, it triggered an instant response that I assume was my brains reward system anticipating what a burger would taste like.

    Maybe I was 'feeling' a little hungry before I started thinking about a burger?

    Thoughts trigger 'feelings' and 'feelings' trigger thoughts. I think it goes both ways but then again Im not a neuro-scientist.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Blotty

    Your claim that "reapplications identify someone" misunderstands the theological framework of Hebrews. The use of proskyneō in Hebrews 1:6 reflects the unique role of Christ in salvation history, not merely as one who inherits worship but as one who inherently deserves it because of His divine nature. Hebrews establishes that Jesus is far superior to the angels (Hebrews 1:4), explicitly stating that He has "inherited a more excellent name than they." This inheritance does not imply a lack of prior worship but highlights Christ's preeminence in the unfolding revelation of God's plan. The angels are commanded to worship Him, not as a newly exalted being but as one whose divine status is progressively revealed to creation (Philippians 2:9-11).

    You assert that the command for angels to worship Jesus suggests He is not God. This conclusion is based on a false dichotomy. In Jewish monotheism, worship (proskyneō) is reserved for Yahweh alone (Exodus 34:14). By applying Deuteronomy 32:43 (from the Septuagint) to Jesus, the author of Hebrews identifies Jesus with Yahweh. This is not idolatry, as you suggest, because the worship of Jesus is presented as consistent with the worship of God. In Revelation 5:13-14, all creation worships "the one seated on the throne" (the Father) and "the Lamb" (Jesus) in a unified act of adoration, demonstrating their shared divine status. Revelation 5 explicitly presents the Lamb as receiving the same worship as the One seated on the throne. In verses 12-13, the Lamb is ascribed "blessing, honor, glory, and power forever and ever," terms consistently reserved for divine worship throughout Scripture. The juxtaposition of the Lamb with the One seated on the throne, both being praised equally by "every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and in the sea," indicates their shared divine status. The claim that this worship is analogous to obeisance given to kings in the OT (e.g., 1 Chronicles 29:20) ignores the unique context of Revelation. In the OT, homage to kings is clearly distinguished from worship of God, often accompanied by warnings against idolatry (Exodus 20:3-5). Revelation 5, however, unites God and the Lamb in a singular act of worship, with no indication of distinction in the nature or degree of reverence.

    The argument that John in the Book of Revelation avoids directly calling the Lamb "God" (theos) does not diminish the Lamb’s divine identity. Revelation’s literary style employs rich symbolism and a high Christology, portraying Jesus as the Lamb who possesses divine attributes such as omnipotence ("seven horns"), omniscience ("seven eyes"), and the authority to execute divine judgment (Revelation 5:6; 6:16-17). Furthermore, the phrase "the Lamb in the midst of the throne" (Revelation 5:6) places Jesus in the same spatial and functional relationship with God, affirming their unity. Quoting P.M. Casey, who argues that the Lamb "almost approaches deity," reflects an interpretive bias rooted in a limited understanding of Jewish monotheism. Second Temple Judaism allowed for a complex monotheism in which intermediary figures like the Angel of the Lord or the "Son of Man" could bear divine authority. Revelation 5 situates the Lamb firmly within this framework, transcending mere kingship to assert divine prerogatives. The argument that John 17:5 denies shared glory between the Son and the Father is linguistically and contextually flawed. Jesus prays to the Father to restore the glory he had "before the world existed," signifying his pre-existent divine status. This shared glory is intrinsic to the Trinitarian relationship, not a bestowed honor limited to Jesus' role as the Lamb. The Lamb’s glorification in Revelation reflects this eternal divine reality, not merely an acquired function.

    The emphasis on the textual variant παντοκράτωρ (pantokrator) in Codex Sinaiticus attempts to create theological ambiguity, suggesting a diminished role for the Lamb. However, this variant, even if genuine, does not contradict the Lamb’s divinity. Whether "dominion" (κράτος) or "almighty" (παντοκράτωρ) is used, the focus remains on the Lamb’s shared authority with God. The broader textual tradition and the consistent ascription of divine worship to the Lamb in Revelation render the variant inconsequential to the theological argument. The claim that the Lamb receives "relative worship" deflects from the clear evidence in Revelation 22:3. The singular pronoun ("him") refers jointly to God and the Lamb, underscoring their unity. The Greek term latreuo, reserved for divine worship (e.g., Matthew 4:10), is applied to the Lamb, affirming his deity. Attempts to limit this service to God the Father fail to account for the context, where the Lamb is equally included in the singular worship. Revelation consistently portrays Jesus as equal to God. The Lamb shares the throne with God (Revelation 3:21; 22:1-3), is the light of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:23), and receives universal worship (Revelation 5:13-14). The use of singular pronouns and verbs further reinforces this unity, as seen in Revelation 11:15, where the kingdom is said to belong to "our Lord and his Christ," yet described with a singular verb.

    Regarding your comments on translation inconsistencies, the accusation against "Trinitarian translations" requires nuance. Translation choices are complex and context-dependent. However, the NWT has been widely criticized for systematic inconsistencies that reflect theological bias, particularly in passages related to Christ's divinity. For example, the NWT translates proskyneō as "worship" when referring to God but as "do obeisance" when referring to Jesus (e.g., Hebrews 1:6). This selective approach undermines the integrity of the translation and reflects an effort to deny the divinity of Christ, despite the contextual evidence supporting worship in the divine sense.

    Your mention of John 1:1 and John 1:6 as "not parallels" ignores the underlying grammatical and theological issues. The rendering of John 1:1 as "the Word was a god" in the NWT introduces a theological interpretation unsupported by Greek grammar or context. The absence of the definite article before theos in John 1:1 does not make it indefinite; this is a well-established principle in Koine Greek grammar. Contextually, John 1:1 affirms the Word’s full divinity while distinguishing the Word (Jesus) from the Father. Comparing this to John 1:6, where "God" (theos) refers to the Father, reveals no inconsistency in mainstream translations, as the contexts clearly differentiate the persons of the Trinity.

    Your assertion that "you cannot worship if you doubt" reflects a misunderstanding of faith and worship. Worship often coexists with human doubt and uncertainty, as exemplified by the disciples in Matthew 28:17: "When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted." Worship here reflects recognition of Jesus' worthiness and divinity, even as the disciples grapple with the profound reality of His resurrection. Faith is not the absence of doubt but trust in the presence of unanswered questions.

    Your critique of Trinitarian scholarship as inherently biased overlooks the rigor and diversity of mainstream biblical translation committees. These committees often include scholars from various denominations and theological perspectives, ensuring checks and balances. By contrast, the NWT was produced by a small, theologically uniform group lacking formal expertise in biblical languages, which has raised concerns about its reliability.

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    Blotty and Earnest,

    Apologies to you both as I stand corrected!

    You are right that Dr Jason BeDugh does in fact endorse the NWT as a 'remarkably good' translation AND 'is 'better by far' than some of the other translations. The fact remains that he is not an authority on biblical translations. Please read below..

    I was shocked to find that a biblical scholar would endorse the NWT.....then, I researched a little on Dr Jason BeDugh and found that he has no languages degree in his studies of religions. Dr Jason DeBugh is no scholar of biblical translations.

    According to his own CV

    Bachelor of arts U of Illinois in [all] religious studies which does not require any biblical languages.

    Master of Theological Studies from Harvard and again, a course of studies which does not require proficiency in any of the biblical languages.

    He then got his PhD from Indiana U in comparative studies of religions.

    Dr BeDugh has admitted on his own that he is NOT an expert on Greek or any other biblical language. So his endorsement is rather hollow.

    Dr BeDugh IS a leader in Gnosticism which denies the deity, death and resurrection of Jesus.

    In his school he teaches pagan courses like Ancient Gods and Goddesses and was the editor of the Gnostic World.

    So, his views do align with WTS teachings, but endorsing an accurate translation from Greek to the NWT is nothing short of fraud for a scholar of religions as opposed to a scholar of Biblical languages.

    You won't find a biblical scholar EVER endorsing the NWT. Keep searching! Sorry, but you know the rest.

    The

    Truth

    Will

    Set

    You

    Free

  • aqwsed12345
  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Halcon: Across societies and nations, people can agree on how it feels to have God in their hearts.

    Do they, really? I strongly suspect that, if I asked people even in one geographic region, I would get many different descriptions of what that means. And this assumes they belong to the same religion and acknowledge the same god.

    If we expand that group across the people of the world, they don't. They belong to different religions (and denominations within those religions) and worship different gods (or different versions of the same god). And there is no way to reconcile those differences, because they are not differences of degree. None of their explanations will rely on testable claims and reliable data.

    That is why my claims about thoughts and feelings are not the same as any claims about god.

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