DID JESUS LOSE HIS FAITH?

by plmkrzy 47 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  plmkrzy

  In God?

  Jesus spent close to 20 years convincing people he was the savior and the Son of God.
  
  He did such a good job of it that 2,000 years later a large portion of the world still believes it.
  
  He was even able to convince someone while his death sentence was being carried out.
  
  According to scripture is last words spoken were to his father:
  “Why have you forsaken me?”
  
  No matter how one might translate what he actually said, how many ways can the word “forsaken” be translated and not carry the same basic meaning?

  Since there is supposed to be a purpose for everything that is written, what would be the purpose of Jesus expressing what could be described as a loss of faith on the day he died?
  
  His reason for being here in the first place was because mankind needed a perfect man to redeem what the original perfect man corrupted because of a lack of faith.
  So if Jesus lost faith in God in the last minutes of his life on earth, why wouldn’t that lack of faith void the redemption?

  faith = redemption

  lack of faith = no redemption
• 

  Hamas

  I've always wondered about this.

  It will be interesting to read the follow ups....

  Sorry I can't contribute, this question has stumped me for years.
• 

  plmkrzy

  this question has stumped me for years

  
  
  Of all the confusing things in the bible, this is the one thing that has stumped me more then anything.
  I've been able to go through the bible anouth to figure out most of it in a way that I am personally comfortable with, except this.
  
  
  It would be very interesting to read some explinations for it. I use to wonder if an explination would be offered in a sunday talk. But I never heard one. I wonder if anyone has?
  
  
  
  
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  Introspection

  This question assumes the traditional idea of faith in a belief, you might even say faith in God is something else.

  If you ask me, the only way the statement "why have you forsaken me?" makes sense is that a separate self was forsaken, the 'me.' But of course this is a completely different way to frame things, most people who believes in the bible thinks God is a separate entity and that everyone is separate from everyone and everything else. (actually belief itself requires separation, but that's another story) If anything it would just be a loss of faith in the role, or actually just sensing the end of the role of an individual at the time. Frankly humans are biologically wired for survival, which means it is a matter of preserving the individuality, being 'perfect' wouldn't take this instinct away or else you'd be dead a long time before reaching adulthood.

  I wonder if anyone has considered that the idea of ransom or substitution is relative in nature. What I mean by that is because you have this an eye for an eye thing the whole thing is dependent upon the condition that another person replaces Adam. Why would a relative movement yield something that is absolute? How does Jesus' perfection transfer to other people anyway? I mean you'd think it's genetic with Adam, but then how would him being perfect change what happend thousands of years ago, even if it did change people starting at that point in time through some unknown mechanism?

  Separation make things relative, that's why any belief based spirituality is hardly spirituality at all, it's just a mind game the ego plays with itself. Not only does real understanding come from not identifying with one particular belief against the others, it involves not identifying with the mind. First you stop tail chasing, then you stop chasing altogether. When you get to that point then you an ask what is it that's been doing all this chasing? The behavior is a complex of conditioning, but then what knows it is a complex of conditioning?

  Belief is nothing more than faith in your mind, and issues such as this regarding one's belief system only goes to show that there isn't faith in any real sense. I'm not saying this to criticize anybody, just calling it as I see it. Perfecting a belief system wouldn't do anything for your faith, if anything you would just cling to your set of beliefs even more.
• 

  plmkrzy

  the only way the statement "why have you forsaken me?" makes sense is that a separate self was forsaken, the 'me.' But of course this is a completely different way to frame things, most people who believes in the bible thinks God is a separate entity and that everyone is separate from everyone and everything else

  Then why wouldn’t he use his own name rather then “father”? Assuming you are correct, wouldn’t that simply make Jesus a man with some serious issues, not to mention a rather large case of major denial?

  The reason I say that is because of your other comments that follow, if you connect the theory above with them:

  it involves not identifying with the mind. First you stop tail chasing, then you stop chasing altogether.

  This would mean that if Jesus last words before he died were, “father why have you forsaken me”, he never came to grip with “reality” and chased his own tail to the very end. Then to make it even worse, billions of people have continued where he left off 2000 years ago, chasing his tail.

  Why would a relative movement yield something that is absolute? How does Jesus' perfection transfer to other people anyway?

  Again, this would be dependant on Jesus being a nutcase instead of the “Christ” and in that case the statement “father why have you forsaken me” would apply to someone in major denial to the death. Instead of waking up to reality he kept waiting for “God”, the one he created in his mind, to rescue him and died thinking he was forsaken by his imaginary father failing to realize he was done in by his own delusions of grandeur.

  So if I’m following you right, Jesus was nothing less then a megalomaniac, if he existed.

  Anyway, that isn’t exactly the direction I wanted to go with my question. I am well aware that there are many members here who do not believe in Christ and some who don’t even believe there was a guy named Jesus.

  I was hoping out of all the former elders and ministerial servants in abundance on this forum, at least one would have something to say about it. But thank you for your response; it was interesting. Actually I was ecstatic that anyone responded at all. I’ll have to change my user ID so posters will reply.
• 

  Dawn

  Jesus was speaking/singing a hymn - Psalm chapter 22 - it was a prophecy about him. He was in fact witnessing to those that still had an ear to listen.

  1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
  Why are you so far from saving me,
  so far from the words of my groaning?
  2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
  by night, and am not silent.
  
  3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
  you are the praise of Israel. [1]
  4 In you our fathers put their trust;
  they trusted and you delivered them.
  5 They cried to you and were saved;
  in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
  
  6 But I am a worm and not a man,
  scorned by men and despised by the people.
  7 All who see me mock me;
  they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
  8 "He trusts in the LORD ;
  let the LORD rescue him.
  Let him deliver him,
  since he delights in him."
  
  [edited to add verse]
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  plmkrzy

  Jesus was speaking/singing a hymn - Psalm chapter 22 - it was a prophecy about him. He was in fact witnessing to those that still had an ear to listen.

  But wasn't that a prophecy more or less of David speaking about Jesus and then to Jesus?

  What I am referring to is the actual time of Jesus death.

  It has never been real clear regarding if Jesus even actually spoke those words, or if someone inserted them and it stuck as though it actually happened.
• 

  Dawn

  It has never been real clear regarding if Jesus even actually spoke those words, or if someone inserted them and it stuck as though it actually happened.

  As to whether it actually happened or not - I'm taking it that it did because it's in the bible. But I don't ignore that there could be arguments to the contrary.

  Anyways - yes, you're correct in that it is a prophecy about Jesus from King David. Jesus was repeating it (the hymn). T hink of it as a last minute witness - someone knowing what has happened to Jesus and seeing him on the cross, then hearing this well known Jewish hymn about the Messiah - suddenly puts it all together (you know). It would also have been a witness to those there that DID believe in him already - confirmation as they remembered the hymn and the prophecy.
• 

  plmkrzy

  Ok, so you feel that Jesus was saying it to the people and not actually speaking to his father. This was his last expression of who he was with words that would be remembered for 2000 years.

  ?
• 

  Dawn

  yep. A reminder of the prophecy - that he was the Messiah.

  Good thing it wasn't me - I would have said something stupid like "I'LL BE BACK! (in Arnold's voice)"